Hello all
I've just tried the ToneBoosters EBULoudness. I think it is a great tool and probably I will buy it in the coming days. But I felt during my trial that few things could be missing for me which don't allow to use it -let's say- in all cases (or perheaps I've missed the features).
1) The loudness meter bar. The metering/scaling is always based on the "meter mode".
Here typically, if I use the K-12, I just see from the 6 to -18 LUFS. Whatever the meter mode selected, I cant have a full meter scale 0 at top and -48 bottom side (something standard which could be used in a general cases, not linked to a specific mode).
I could have appreciated 2 additional mode from 0 to -48, 0 top side (for exemple a standard RMS mode, and let's say a kind of "LU K-0" with gating).
Or another way: having always the standard scaling 0 to -48 (no change whatever the mode), and another additional scaling which change depending on the meter mode ...
2) The real Time analysis is excellent. But why having only the SL and not the ML (from my opinion more usefull). Or better: the 3 curves IL + ML + SL.
I guess it should not have been too complex to include this feature as all values are already computed and reported.
Then my conclusion is that it is an excellent plugin but which could have some limitation (or not completly friendly).
What's your opinion of the EBULoudness and for those who own/use it, have you felt some limitations etc... which could request to switch on another metering solution, and why ...?
Thanks
TB EBULoudness
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Since I was involved with the development of the later versions (2.8 and up), I can answer these questions. FR's need to be still adressed to Jeroen Breebaart directly however. Though I'm sure he's reading along.
But, EBU Loudness is not an "all-purpose" metering tool, it's focusing on the EBU R-128/ITU-R BS.1770 Standard and the K-System v2 recommendation, not RMS/VU or other rare metering specifications.
Let's say the reference level is -12LUFS (or -12dB RMS according to EBU R-128 specs), but you want to tag it LU (loudness unit), then the -12LUFS turns into 0LU and then you have a scale you are looking for.
This pretty much happens in this case as well, -12 LUFS = 0LU SLk/MLk. The value in front of the LUFS defines the reference level. Much like the K-System v1.
Using the EBU R-128 meter as plain RMS meter would make 99% of the plugin invalid. A standard RMS meter uses unweighted meters with a ballistic of 300ms rise/fall, and each channel is treated individually. EBU R-128 uses the k-weighting filter, 400ms for Momentary/3s for Short Terms - both bargraphs are a sum (sans the sub) of all channels. Maths are used for Integrated readout.
I can't say much about the scale, other than it doesn't make any sense. Unless you simply want a finer resolution, which does not make sense if you have fairly low volume material. And you also disregard any signal that goes above 0LU. If it's peak we're talking about, it's a different game. But I remember, that Jeroen Breebaart went by specs from the official white papers.
Don't see the meter as "0LU is the absolute limit". As with mixers, the zero-point (0 LU) uses a certain reference level (example -12LUFS), so it's normal that the meter goes above and below that value - especially if we talk about ballistics other than "measure samples" (read: 5ms, 10ms, 300ms, 400ms, 600ms, 3s, etc). If it's happening with digital peak (sample measurement) - then the signal is clipping.
LU K-0 also doesn't make any sense. K-0v2 would mean, that the reference level is 0LUFS. Most modern productions these days go up to -5dB RMS (or -5 LUFS for that matter). Do you really want to measure with 0 LUFS and see how high you can go?
This is definitely not the purpose of this tool (R-128), and also not the idea behind the K-System v2.
I also asked for implementing a ML histogram, but after defining the K-System v2 recommendation (see another thread in the Production Subforum), I ultimately abandoned the idea. Your focus should be on the SLk meter - as it's defined in the EBU R-128 white papers.
The K-System v2 is an added bonus. A variable reference level might make sense, but then people would still do whatever the heck they want. The presets are there to prevent that - and/or make it easier for new users of this tool or better said the standard.
Personally I'd love to see a variable histogram time frame, but this is on a long FR for v3. Same with the so called "Radar View" and the "Grimm Meter" view (both are copyrighted in design to my knowledge), this is also on a v3 list.
Variable reference level and color codes might be an option, but I fear (with other variable metering tools) that people do not stick to the standards and recommendations that these tools provide and were mainly created for.
Then again, this tool is pretty much perfect already, so there is in theory no need for a v3.
SUMMARY:
If you're in the broadcast realm, use the EBU R-128 preset. If you're doing mixing/preparation prior to mastering, use a RMS (-18dBFS)/Digital meter combo. If you're doing mastering, then use either of the desired K-System v2 presets and mix s that the mezzoforte passages peak around 0LU SLk, and the forte fortissimo passages (chorus, breakdown) don't go higher than +3LU SLk.
Then you're within specs, and metering with this tool makes ton of fun as well.
But, EBU Loudness is not an "all-purpose" metering tool, it's focusing on the EBU R-128/ITU-R BS.1770 Standard and the K-System v2 recommendation, not RMS/VU or other rare metering specifications.
This is why these meters are tagged LUFS - Loudness Unit Full Scale.yomanfree wrote:1) The loudness meter bar. The metering/scaling is always based on the "meter mode".
Here typically, if I use the K-12, I just see from the 6 to -18 LUFS. Whatever the meter mode selected, I cant have a full meter scale 0 at top and -48 bottom side (something standard which could be used in a general cases, not linked to a specific mode).
Let's say the reference level is -12LUFS (or -12dB RMS according to EBU R-128 specs), but you want to tag it LU (loudness unit), then the -12LUFS turns into 0LU and then you have a scale you are looking for.
This pretty much happens in this case as well, -12 LUFS = 0LU SLk/MLk. The value in front of the LUFS defines the reference level. Much like the K-System v1.
A standard RMS mode doesn't make sense. The EBU R-128/ITU-R BS.1770 specifications state that there needs to be a weighting filter, and specific ballistic for the bargraphs, the loudness measurement is summed as well.yomanfree wrote:I could have appreciated 2 additional mode from 0 to -48, 0 top side (for exemple a standard RMS mode, and let's say a kind of "LU K-0" with gating).
Or another way: having always the standard scaling 0 to -48 (no change whatever the mode), and another additional scaling which change depending on the meter mode ...
Using the EBU R-128 meter as plain RMS meter would make 99% of the plugin invalid. A standard RMS meter uses unweighted meters with a ballistic of 300ms rise/fall, and each channel is treated individually. EBU R-128 uses the k-weighting filter, 400ms for Momentary/3s for Short Terms - both bargraphs are a sum (sans the sub) of all channels. Maths are used for Integrated readout.
I can't say much about the scale, other than it doesn't make any sense. Unless you simply want a finer resolution, which does not make sense if you have fairly low volume material. And you also disregard any signal that goes above 0LU. If it's peak we're talking about, it's a different game. But I remember, that Jeroen Breebaart went by specs from the official white papers.
Don't see the meter as "0LU is the absolute limit". As with mixers, the zero-point (0 LU) uses a certain reference level (example -12LUFS), so it's normal that the meter goes above and below that value - especially if we talk about ballistics other than "measure samples" (read: 5ms, 10ms, 300ms, 400ms, 600ms, 3s, etc). If it's happening with digital peak (sample measurement) - then the signal is clipping.
LU K-0 also doesn't make any sense. K-0v2 would mean, that the reference level is 0LUFS. Most modern productions these days go up to -5dB RMS (or -5 LUFS for that matter). Do you really want to measure with 0 LUFS and see how high you can go?
This is definitely not the purpose of this tool (R-128), and also not the idea behind the K-System v2.
The Integrated Loudness is defined by maths from the complete stream, there is no ideal way to show it as a histogram currently. The SLk meter makes the most sense with the analysis, since it's showing a general overview of the loudness - and you should(!) focus on the ShortTerm Loudness rather than Integrated and Momentary alone.yomanfree wrote: 2) The real Time analysis is excellent. But why having only the SL and not the ML (from my opinion more usefull). Or better: the 3 curves IL + ML + SL.
I guess it should not have been too complex to include this feature as all values are already computed and reported.
I also asked for implementing a ML histogram, but after defining the K-System v2 recommendation (see another thread in the Production Subforum), I ultimately abandoned the idea. Your focus should be on the SLk meter - as it's defined in the EBU R-128 white papers.
The meter is more than within specs, and then some. Jeroen Breebaart was in touch with the creators of the EBU R-128 standard, and even enhanced the metering tool according to feedback by them.yomanfree wrote: Then my conclusion is that it is an excellent plugin but which could have some limitation (or not completly friendly).
The K-System v2 is an added bonus. A variable reference level might make sense, but then people would still do whatever the heck they want. The presets are there to prevent that - and/or make it easier for new users of this tool or better said the standard.
I tried pretty much every EBU R-128 meter on the market, and the EBU Loudness plugin by TB is more than fair priced for what you get feature wise. The only tools that come close (or feature similar modes) start with 199USD and go up to 399USD, with only a stereo version.yomanfree wrote:What's your opinion of the EBULoudness and for those who own/use it, have you felt some limitations etc... which could request to switch on another metering solution, and why ...?
Personally I'd love to see a variable histogram time frame, but this is on a long FR for v3. Same with the so called "Radar View" and the "Grimm Meter" view (both are copyrighted in design to my knowledge), this is also on a v3 list.
Variable reference level and color codes might be an option, but I fear (with other variable metering tools) that people do not stick to the standards and recommendations that these tools provide and were mainly created for.
Then again, this tool is pretty much perfect already, so there is in theory no need for a v3.
SUMMARY:If you're in the broadcast realm, use the EBU R-128 preset. If you're doing mixing/preparation prior to mastering, use a RMS (-18dBFS)/Digital meter combo. If you're doing mastering, then use either of the desired K-System v2 presets and mix s that the mezzoforte passages peak around 0LU SLk, and the forte fortissimo passages (chorus, breakdown) don't go higher than +3LU SLk.
Then you're within specs, and metering with this tool makes ton of fun as well.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 157 posts since 4 Jun, 2011
Hello Compyfox
dont know why but I was almost sure that you will answer
and for sure I had recognized the K-system v2 signature in the tool
I will not come back on the technical details you provide (I know you master this, and I already know everything you have written), to just focus on initial ideas.
I've understood what was the initial target of the EBU loudness.
But it seems to me that the gap is so small to have a more complete/universal tool that it is a pity, and if I buy it, my feeling is that I will still need to use another metering tool in //.
1) I'm still sure that a full range meter could be usefull (at least for me), as almost all metering tools. Something like the TT Dynamic Range Meter for exemple .... And additionnally it is still possible at the end to avoid only to focus on standardization (which is not always well done for the music).
2) "I also asked for implementing a ML histogram, but after defining the K-System v2 recommendation (see another thread in the Production Subforum), I ultimately abandoned the idea. Your focus should be on the SLk meter - as it's defined in the EBU R-128 white papers. "
I guess we agree here. Just on my side I dont care on the fact that it is defined in the EBU R128 paper. Because I prefer to have something usefull for me and analysis. Here there is no antagonism yet.
ML remains important. Then as SL is necessary for the standard, SL + ML ... (I agree that IL is not fully necessary - and the plugin reports the value - but good to have it as reference in the graph)
LCAST at 149$ does that (wow I should go to the bargain thread to highlight the 25% off)....
3) "TB is more than fair priced for what you get feature wise. The only tools that come close (or feature similar modes) start with 199USD and go up to 399USD, with only a stereo version"
100% agree, I've already checked I think almost all plugins.
Except the Blue Cat's DP Meter Pro, 55$, which seems to me quite good too.
EBU Loudness is just missing from my opinion some features which can be found in free plugins to have a full usable tool ... Do you see my point ?
Thanks Compy, and sorry even if my first sentences was a bit written with a little humorous mindset, it remains that I've read your paper on the K-system v2 and appreciated it.
What do you think about the Blue Cat's DP Meter Pro ?
bye
dont know why but I was almost sure that you will answer
and for sure I had recognized the K-system v2 signature in the tool I will not come back on the technical details you provide (I know you master this, and I already know everything you have written), to just focus on initial ideas.
I've understood what was the initial target of the EBU loudness.
But it seems to me that the gap is so small to have a more complete/universal tool that it is a pity, and if I buy it, my feeling is that I will still need to use another metering tool in //.
1) I'm still sure that a full range meter could be usefull (at least for me), as almost all metering tools. Something like the TT Dynamic Range Meter for exemple .... And additionnally it is still possible at the end to avoid only to focus on standardization (which is not always well done for the music).
2) "I also asked for implementing a ML histogram, but after defining the K-System v2 recommendation (see another thread in the Production Subforum), I ultimately abandoned the idea. Your focus should be on the SLk meter - as it's defined in the EBU R-128 white papers. "
I guess we agree here. Just on my side I dont care on the fact that it is defined in the EBU R128 paper. Because I prefer to have something usefull for me and analysis. Here there is no antagonism yet.
ML remains important. Then as SL is necessary for the standard, SL + ML ... (I agree that IL is not fully necessary - and the plugin reports the value - but good to have it as reference in the graph)
LCAST at 149$ does that (wow I should go to the bargain thread to highlight the 25% off)....
3) "TB is more than fair priced for what you get feature wise. The only tools that come close (or feature similar modes) start with 199USD and go up to 399USD, with only a stereo version"
100% agree, I've already checked I think almost all plugins.
Except the Blue Cat's DP Meter Pro, 55$, which seems to me quite good too.
EBU Loudness is just missing from my opinion some features which can be found in free plugins to have a full usable tool ... Do you see my point ?
Thanks Compy, and sorry even if my first sentences was a bit written with a little humorous mindset, it remains that I've read your paper on the K-system v2 and appreciated it.
What do you think about the Blue Cat's DP Meter Pro ?
bye
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Hello there,
BTW: A Dynamic Range (crest factor) meter is built into EBULoudness. It's the "PLR" meter. The "Dynamic Range" meter itself in EBULoudness utilizes the gating function of the EBU R-128 spec.
Else, yes... for mixing only, I still recommend a plain RMS/VU and Digital meter combo. And here, there are plenty of possibilities. Klanghelm, SleepyTimeRecords and zplane come to mind again.
Though I agree, it might be handy to have everything in one tool. But then again, that's not the concept of EBU Loudness.
As long as I can't render the histogram into a file (where I still don't see a use for analysis for mastering - just broadcasting stations that need to adjust themselves if something went wrong), I don't miss a histogram for Momentary Loudness.
I'm still working on v1.6 of that one btw. I'll keep the crowd informed, as soon as I'm done in the appropriate thread.
I'm usually not in need of loudness automation like this tool is capable off. And I also remember, that the DP Meter Pro only has unweighted meters (300ms for RMS, 600ms for K-System v1). But it's still an alternative on the market. Especially considering the price to other DR Meters (Brainworx bx_meter is 99USD excl. VAT, Bluecat is 79USD excl. VAT). I don't know how much you pay these days for the Pleasurize Music Foundation version.
Still, I'd also recommend zplane's PPMulator as multi-purpose peak/loudness metering tool. Unless you're on a budget, can live without histogram features and running a tool Stand-Alone, then go with the ORBAN Loudness Meter.
This one also has a VU (300ms) and PPM (variable ballistics), variable reference level, etc. A good entry level tool.
Don't know why, maybe I'm one of the crazy people in terms of metering tools?yomanfree wrote:dont know why but I was almost sure that you will answer
I see your point, and I totally understand that. But multi-purpose tools are rare these days. Nugen Audio still is short on Visualizer v2, RME DigiCheck only works with RME hardware, AXIS Plugins asks for an annual fee and Syncrosoft E-Licenser, Pinguin Audio Meter and PAS Audio Meter are standalone, ORBAN Loudness Meter lacks both a histogram and FFT/Correlation meter. The only multi-purpose peak/loudness measurement tool that I could recommend at this point might be PPMulator XL by zplane - but then you miss out on the FFT and correlation meter again. Or as mentioned, the ORBAN Loudness Meter.yomanfree wrote:I've understood what was the initial target of the EBU loudness.
But it seems to me that the gap is so small to have a more complete/universal tool that it is a pity, and if I buy it, my feeling is that I will still need to use another metering tool in //.
Depends on how well it's pulled off. I just find the R-128 standard pretty much perfect for loudness measurement while mastering. I don't use the EBU R-128 meter for mixing, here I trust a RMS/VU meter at -18dBFS and my host's digital meter. Cubase's built in new meter in the Control Room works great for that, or Reaper with the VU/Digital Meter combo.yomanfree wrote:1) I'm still sure that a full range meter could be usefull (at least for me), as almost all metering tools. Something like the TT Dynamic Range Meter for exemple .... And additionnally it is still possible at the end to avoid only to focus on standardization (which is not always well done for the music).
BTW: A Dynamic Range (crest factor) meter is built into EBULoudness. It's the "PLR" meter. The "Dynamic Range" meter itself in EBULoudness utilizes the gating function of the EBU R-128 spec.
Else, yes... for mixing only, I still recommend a plain RMS/VU and Digital meter combo. And here, there are plenty of possibilities. Klanghelm, SleepyTimeRecords and zplane come to mind again.
Though I agree, it might be handy to have everything in one tool. But then again, that's not the concept of EBU Loudness.
Again, it's on a FR list for a possible v3. Maybe it'll see a light of day, maybe we also get a radar and "grimm" meter. We'll have to wait and see.yomanfree wrote:I guess we agree here. Just on my side I dont care on the fact that it is defined in the EBU R128 paper. Because I prefer to have something usefull for me and analysis. Here there is no antagonism yet.
ML remains important. Then as SL is necessary for the standard, SL + ML ... (I agree that IL is not fully necessary - and the plugin reports the value - but good to have it as reference in the graph)
As long as I can't render the histogram into a file (where I still don't see a use for analysis for mastering - just broadcasting stations that need to adjust themselves if something went wrong), I don't miss a histogram for Momentary Loudness.
Yes I do. But again, for just a "plain" EBU R-128 meter, it's more than stuffed. So 15 EUR is definitely a steal.yomanfree wrote:Except the Blue Cat's DP Meter Pro, 55$, which seems to me quite good too.
EBU Loudness is just missing from my opinion some features which can be found in free plugins to have a full usable tool ... Do you see my point ?
No harm done, no harm taken.yomanfree wrote:Thanks Compy, and sorry even if my first sentences was a bit written with a little humorous mindset, it remains that I've read your paper on the K-system v2 and appreciated it.
I'm still working on v1.6 of that one btw. I'll keep the crowd informed, as soon as I'm done in the appropriate thread.
To be honest, I haven't taken a more in-depth look, but I like the general concept of this meter. Especially the energy strength meter (which is pretty much standard these days, and yes - it's also an FR for EBU Loudness v3).yomanfree wrote:What do you think about the Blue Cat's DP Meter Pro ?
I'm usually not in need of loudness automation like this tool is capable off. And I also remember, that the DP Meter Pro only has unweighted meters (300ms for RMS, 600ms for K-System v1). But it's still an alternative on the market. Especially considering the price to other DR Meters (Brainworx bx_meter is 99USD excl. VAT, Bluecat is 79USD excl. VAT). I don't know how much you pay these days for the Pleasurize Music Foundation version.
Still, I'd also recommend zplane's PPMulator as multi-purpose peak/loudness metering tool. Unless you're on a budget, can live without histogram features and running a tool Stand-Alone, then go with the ORBAN Loudness Meter.
This one also has a VU (300ms) and PPM (variable ballistics), variable reference level, etc. A good entry level tool.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 157 posts since 4 Jun, 2011
Hi Compyfox
"Still, I'd also recommend zplane's PPMulator as multi-purpose peak/loudness metering tool."
Never tried this one. I will now
"Unless you're on a budget, can live without histogram features and running a tool Stand-Alone, then go with the ORBAN Loudness Meter. "
easy to live without. I think that Klanghelm VUMT (really flexible even if I regret that we can't control the freeze time of the max VU value) + DAW metering + EBU loudness for mastering are clearly enought to do the job. And who knows perheaps one day EBU loudness everywhere
Thanks
"Still, I'd also recommend zplane's PPMulator as multi-purpose peak/loudness metering tool."
Never tried this one. I will now
"Unless you're on a budget, can live without histogram features and running a tool Stand-Alone, then go with the ORBAN Loudness Meter. "
easy to live without. I think that Klanghelm VUMT (really flexible even if I regret that we can't control the freeze time of the max VU value) + DAW metering + EBU loudness for mastering are clearly enought to do the job. And who knows perheaps one day EBU loudness everywhere
Thanks
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Nah, I think RMS/VU meters still have a right of existence, since they're time-proven (along with PPM's at 5ms and later digital meters) in terms of signal measurement while mixing.
And yes, either Klanghelm, SleepyTimeRecords, if it's still maintenanced even PSP Vintage Meter and especially zplane's PPMulatorXL are highly capable of doing that job and then some.
For mastering, broadcast streams and video postpro, I think EBU R-128 (especially the ballistics) is the non-plus ultra as of this moment.
And yes, either Klanghelm, SleepyTimeRecords, if it's still maintenanced even PSP Vintage Meter and especially zplane's PPMulatorXL are highly capable of doing that job and then some.
For mastering, broadcast streams and video postpro, I think EBU R-128 (especially the ballistics) is the non-plus ultra as of this moment.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 157 posts since 4 Jun, 2011
"EBU loudness for mastering are clearly enought to do the job. And who knows perheaps one day EBU loudness everywhere"
-> my idea was:
EBU loudness for mastering are clearly enought to do the job. And who knows perheaps one day EBU loudness v3 (with RMS full scale ) everywhere.
(sure no interest to use K-system or EBU etc.... in mixing channel)
I dont know why but I've not been confortable with PPMulator (but vieklang yes
but this is another story ...). PSP vintage meter had some bugs in my DAW.
-> my idea was:
EBU loudness for mastering are clearly enought to do the job. And who knows perheaps one day EBU loudness v3 (with RMS full scale
) everywhere.(sure no interest to use K-system or EBU etc.... in mixing channel)
I dont know why but I've not been confortable with PPMulator (but vieklang yes
but this is another story ...). PSP vintage meter had some bugs in my DAW.Compyfox wrote:Nah, I think RMS/VU meters still have a right of existence, since they're time-proven (along with PPM's at 5ms and later digital meters) in terms of signal measurement while mixing.
And yes, either Klanghelm, SleepyTimeRecords, if it's still maintenanced even PSP Vintage Meter and especially zplane's PPMulatorXL are highly capable of doing that job and then some.
For mastering, broadcast streams and video postpro, I think EBU R-128 (especially the ballistics) is the non-plus ultra as of this moment.
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- KVRian
- 1310 posts since 16 Nov, 2011
Can anybody simply explain me how EBULoudness works? Does it just increase/normalize volume? I put it on my master channel and track is "only" louder - but why? - I thought that it's "just" analyser.
Thank you.
Excuse my poor English.
Thank you.
Excuse my poor English.
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Do you hear a considerable loudness boost, or are you just confused by the readouts?
If it's the latter (being confused), then take note that the EBU Loudness meter uses different ballistics than plain RMS meters.
EBU Loudness should not(!) change the output volume.
If it's the latter (being confused), then take note that the EBU Loudness meter uses different ballistics than plain RMS meters.
EBU Loudness should not(!) change the output volume.