KVR Audio

nachenko · Post by **nachenko** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:09 pm

Hi everyone.

I've been a FLStudio user for more than ten years. I know it like the back of my hand, and I think it is an amazing, top quality software... but I'm tired of its workflow and I want something much more streamlined now. Part of this idea comes from some time I spent using an old Maschine MK1 1.8. The old Maschine software is miles behind FLStudio in terms of possibilities, but the speed at which you work with it is just amazing. It also showed me the goods of a seamless DAW/hardware integration. That convinced me of starting over with a new, much more simple setup, even if that means dealing with some limitations.

This is what I'm looking for:

· Simple, streamlined, frictionless, great interface and great user experience. Keep all the workflow in just one screen whenever possible. One of the things I don't like of FLStudio is the many windows it opens and closes the whole time.

· Hardware controller designed specifically for the DAW. FLStudio integration with other controllers is still lacking. Maschine is beautiful. Unfortunately, I could try Push, and I live in a small city, going to a local shop is not an option.

· Most common operations should require simple setup / few clicks / little to no mouse. I'm producing house / electronic stuff. Example: sidechain.

· FUN.

· I don't care about included synths. I'm covered on that.

· Included drum samples should be organized in a way that makes sense and easy to navigate. Native Instruments excels at that with Maschine.

· Sampler capable of chopping / looping / getting long chunks or single cycle waves at ease. Easy editing. Maschine is quite agile on this, I don't know about Live. I don't need it superfancy, but something that let me go straight to the point, so to say.

· Ability to save little pieces, clips, patterns and throw them into a new project by drag'n'drop. In FLStudio, building an "ideas / sketches / random experiments" folder is much easier than using them into a project. Maschine 1 can do that, but it doesn't have preview capabilities.

· Simple workflow. If I understand correctly, Maschine 2.8 isn't still a full DAW, I can't build an entire song and click on render, am I right? IS "bouncing" Maschine to FLStudio my only option? To me, this is the key advantage for Live.

So that's it, I'm caught between two options, both them similar and both them good. Any insight / experience on this subject is appreciated.

Thanks.

Reefius · Post by **Reefius** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:52 pm

I think the best way to find out about Ableton Live is to download the Live demo and try it out for yourself.

Yorrrrrr · Post by **Yorrrrrr** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:11 pm

I used FL Studio since version 6 until 12, also knew it like the back of my hand, but tested Live 10 and fell in love with it inmediately, switched and never looking back. Also Live 10 + Push 2 (hardware specially designed ofr it) is an amazing combination. Simple, streamlined, easy, quick interface, great workflow. Suite includes pretty much all you need, and the content is neatly organized and so easy to get to with the browser.

thecontrolcentre · Post by **thecontrolcentre** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:27 pm

As already mentioned, try the Live demo. Integration with Push2 is awesome ... its great with Novations ReMoteSL keyboards too. Sampler & Simpler are easy and intuitive to use. Happy Live 10 & Push2 user here.

xx JPRacer xx · Post by **xx JPRacer xx** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:22 pm

Push 2 with Bitwig. If you don't like it then go with Live. Push 2 works really well with both.

mholloway · Post by **mholloway** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:31 pm

DAW preference is such a personal workflow and taste thing. What is fast and fun for one person will be a complete headscratcher for the next guy, and vice versa.

It really doesn't matter what you read people saying is "the best" or "the fastest" or "the best organized" or whatever....

use the damn demo and decide for yourself!

cheers,
-M

xx JPRacer xx · Post by **xx JPRacer xx** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:35 pm

It's not just about DAWs. The op want a DAW with good hardware (Push/Mashine like) integration.

The choices are pretty small, mainly Bitwig, Live or Mashine (which is not a full DAW anyway).

tomheavybeats · Post by **tomheavybeats** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:36 pm

bought Maschine and hated the software, found it really unintuitive. Bought Live 10 and Push 2 and it is just so so good. SO quick to get ideas down and it all just works. Record audio, drag it into simpler and mess around with sliced samples in Push, all super quick. Fun!

kb420 · Post by **kb420** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:58 pm

I own Push 2 with Ableton Live 10 Suite, and I love it. I also own Maschine mk2, Studio, and mk3 with all of NI's Expansions and Komplete 11 Ultimate, and I also love that. Here are the biggest differences from my perspective:

1. Controller Integration: without a doubt, Maschine wins this. The Maschine software was specifically designed to work with Maschine, so honestly, you hardly ever need to use the mouse for most functions.

2. Library: Maschine and Komplete 11 Ultimate together with all of the available NKS Ready software are much better than the included library that comes with Live Suite.

3. Software: Live wins this. While the integration between Maschine and it's software is better than that of Push and Live, Live is still a much more thorough DAW than Maschine's software. Live was around for quite some time before Push was created, and had already made a name for itself. I was a Live user long before Push was invented, and if Push were never invented, I would still be a Live user. I personally hated Maschine's software when I first got it. It really took a while to get used to it, but once I learned my way around it, I understand and use it for what it is. Ultimately, it's very limited, but it is very efficient to get an idea up and running fast.

As a FL Studio user, I think you would really understand my workflow with Maschine. I use Maschine much like you would, making patterns in FL. I then use the "Drag & Drop" feature to drag audio in to another DAW, {Live or Cubase}. That's where I end up mixing and arranging everything.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:16 pm

kb420 wrote:2. Library: Maschine and Komplete 11 Ultimate together with all of the available NKS Ready software are much better than the included library that comes with Live Suite.

That is a matter of opinion... I have Komplete (not ultimate) and I hardly use any of it. I ended up finding other plugins that I like better and so Komplete is basically collecting dust.

Back when I used Live (Bitwig user now) I used the included Live instruments much more than I ever used the NI synths.

And if you are not using NI plugins, then the Machine integration isn't so good...

kb420 · Post by **kb420** » Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:52 am

pdxindy wrote:
kb420 wrote:2. Library: Maschine and Komplete 11 Ultimate together with all of the available NKS Ready software are much better than the included library that comes with Live Suite.
That is a matter of opinion... I have Komplete (not ultimate) and I hardly use any of it. I ended up finding other plugins that I like better and so Komplete is basically collecting dust.

Back when I used Live (Bitwig user now) I used the included Live instruments much more than I ever used the NI synths.

And if you are not using NI plugins, then the Machine integration isn't so good...

When all I used was Live Suite, my favorite plugins in Live were "Analog" and "Operator". Of course I used Simpler/Sampler for all of my samples, but that was about it. In Komplete, I have Massive, Monark, and FM8. Those three are much better than anything you'll find in Live Suite, and Kontact with all of it's NI and 3rd party libraries has a lot more options than Simpler/Sampler.

With all that being said, there's no doubt that there are better plugins for specific needs. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I just really believe Komplete 11 Ultimate is better than Live Suite.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:24 am

NI start Maschine off in this self contained configuration, so importing to a DAW is cludgy, but it can be fixed. It requires changing two areas in the software, then Maschine can easily export MIDI patterns to a single track. If you like the work flow in Maschine there's no reason not to continue down that path. The v2 of the software will work with the hardware you have, or go ahead and get the MK3 hardware.

Ableton Live with Push 2 is a great setup no doubt, but IMO to really have fun with it you need to go all the way and get Suite, since the instruments have been given GUI elements on Push 2's screen. You don't care about included synths I understand that though, I end up not using Live Suite with Push 2 as much just because I have a workflow in my VSTi's covered as well.

If you can stand the learning curve my setup now is Reaper and Maschine 2. I'm not particularly sold on Maschine for recording soft synths and I have a couple hardware synths, so Reaper covers that.

nachenko · Post by **nachenko** » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:30 am

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. Some good tips here.

As JPRacer pointed out:

xx JPRacer xx wrote:It's not just about DAWs. The op want a DAW with good hardware (Push/Mashine like) integration.

I can demo the software, and I already know (old) Maschine. The problem is I can't demo the hardware integration.

So, thanks to your comments, things are a bit more clearer now. Let me explain my situation a bit more:

· Included soft synths are not important to me, as I already own Synthmaster (both versions), Synapse Audio The Legend and Sonic Academy ANA 2. I also own Sytrus, but there is no VST version for Mac yet, so the moment I step out of FLStudio, I'll lose this one, at least until Image-Line releases the Mac version. It's a great synth, but not having it is not the end of the world.

· Included samples are great too, but I got some sample libraries from Wave Alchemy at a huge discount, so the included samples are good to have, but again, they are not critical to me. I became a big Wave Alchemy fan, BTW.

· What is more important is that I LOVE the way you navigate Maschine sample library. Everything is classified, tagged and well sorted out, and that was Maschine 1. I read in NI forums that in version 2 this is even better, which is great news. On the other side, I tried Live 9 Lite and it was like: "drums / samples / kicks / here you have, all the kicks, digital, analog, sampled, everything in just one folder, no order, no filtering options, no tags, just file after file after file, spend half your life previewing files, when you finish browsing, additional drum kits will go to different folders, f**k your life".

· I integrated those synths in Maschine easily in the past. I mean, you can custom map hardware controls to any VST and save that as the default template for that plugin. For example, every time I loaded ANA2 in Maschine, the eight knobs were automatically assigned to volume, pitch, modulation wheel, global cutoff and the 4 macro knobs. If I go Push+Live, I expect to be able to do that, am I right?

· Another thing that put me on the fence is a live show + workshop I did a few months ago. It was a Chiptune workshop, but I though a mini-live show would give it an edge, that's what I used that Maschine for. The thing is, putting the stuff I prepared on FLStudio on Maschine was too cumbersome, I started over and built the entire track for live performance in Maschine standalone...and it took just a couple hours. And it was "oh, crap, I had to start over and rebuild the entire track for this live show... but on the other side, I rebuilt the entire thing at light speed, I was really able to work FAST". And performing with Maschine was quite smooth too.

Those are the keys. Simple. Work fast.

Again, thanks everyone for taking the time to write.

DJ Warmonger · Post by **DJ Warmonger** » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:38 am

Machine hardware is integrated with Machine software, but that's it. I'm waiting for promised MK3 integration in Live myself, but so far it does not happen:
https://www.native-instruments.com/foru ... 215/page-4

As a Push 1 user, I rarely actually use the device. It does not have enough features to do everything from hardware (such as file saving), unless of course you work with hardware alone. Push 2 also has some additional I/O routing and recording options, which should make it more usable in my workflow.

redlester · Post by **redlester** » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:52 am

nachenko wrote: · What is more important is that I LOVE the way you navigate Maschine sample library. Everything is classified, tagged and well sorted out, and that was Maschine 1. I read in NI forums that in version 2 this is even better, which is great news. On the other side, I tried Live 9 Lite and it was like: "drums / samples / kicks / here you have, all the kicks, digital, analog, sampled, everything in just one folder, no order, no filtering options, no tags, just file after file after file, spend half your life previewing files, when you finish browsing, additional drum kits will go to different folders, f**k your life".

In Live you can filter search results by typing into the Search bar in the browser. Am not sure if this works as well as Maschine's system to be fair.

I started out with Maschine but have moved to Live with Push 2. Some features of Maschine I really loved, but I find the sample editing more intuitive with Ableton, but the biggest factor of all was the arrangement/scenes/ideas view stuff within Maschine. I found chaining patterns into a proper arrangment tedious and slow.

Using 'subtractive arranging' within Live Session View is light years better, for me personally at least. (Edit: I just wish they would make properly automating follow-on actions for scenes possible!)

On the fence with Ableton Live and Maschine