Feedback to Beta 15 Aug 2004

[Pädy]

EDIT: Just to put the full date in the title . . . DarkStar

Very nice update. Many congrats.

Some things that caught my attention:

- Sequencer metronome and global metronome are not in sync. Is there any situation where you would want them to be different?
- VSTi's (inserted into the sequencer) sync to the global metronome - not to the sequencer one.
- Where are the Zoom handles in the sequencer?

Song position display:

I don't need hours, but milliseconds are important IMHO.

Click Track:

- Time signature would be fine and the option to stress the first beat of the bar.
- Shouldn't the default setting be 'internal' rather than 'external'?

Marker Track:

- 'auto zoom' and 'auto group select' on a per marker part basis.
- Shouldn't selecting the marker part name in the mixer lead to the same Zoom resolution as Ctrl-+ while having selected said marker part?
- Now that we have marker tracks, how can I make the cursor jump to a certain marker postion via key shortcut? I couldn't figure that one out.
- Can we have a faster way of moving the marker track to the top than selecting 'Move up' x times. Which I expect to be a pretty often task when you (like me) add the marker track only after having done quite some recording already. Drag'n'drop of tracks would be best.


Audio part editing:

- When editing the length of an audio part, it won't snap to the grid. Only after I have changed the snap settings to another number (while having the part in question selected) I can resize the part to the grid. From then on it does work with the default grid setting too.

Recording:

- I said it before and Jorgen did not respond to this yet: Audio input level is very low compared to any other host I'm using.

Cheers, Pädy

[NicFit]

- Sequencer metronome and global metronome are not in sync. Is there any situation where you would want them to be different?

yes...this was requested.
You can choose in the "Master" section of the sequencers mixer to switch between "Int" or "Ext"...if you choose "Ext" you will need to adjust the tempo in the Main window under the synchronizer for it to take affect.

- VSTi's (inserted into the sequencer) sync to the global metronome - not to the sequencer one.

not on my machine, unless I have "Ext" selected.

- Where are the Zoom handles in the sequencer?

good question...I'm assuming they will be back. For now you can zoom with the mouse wheel in the timeline, or Ctrl+Mousewheel elsewhere.

- Now that we have marker tracks, how can I make the cursor jump to a certain marker postion via key shortcut? I couldn't figure that one out.

I did not see anything in the update about this...so it's not implemented yet.

- Can we have a faster way of moving the marker track to the top than selecting 'Move up' x times. Which I expect to be a pretty often task when you (like me) add the marker track only after having done quite some recording already. Drag'n'drop of tracks would be best.

yeah...dragging tracks is on the FR list, just add a Marker track to your default setup. My default setup now has a Marker track at the top...followed by a Folder track called "Master"...inside that folder there is several other folders, Drums, Bass, Melody...each of those folders has 3 more folders named MIDI, Audio, and Automation.

- When editing the length of an audio part, it won't snap to the grid. Only after I have changed the snap settings to another number (while having the part in question selected) I can resize the part to the grid. From then on it does work with the default grid setting too.

Snapping fine here...it's not suppose to snap to the "grid"...it snaps to your "Snap" settings

- I said it before and Jorgen did not respond to this yet: Audio input level is very low compared to any other host I'm using.

What "other" host are you talking about? ...Are you sure you are not adding any gain to the signal path? ...XT's faders do not add gain...this is probably what your confused about....I ran some tests in FruityLoops and CubaseSX2 when you first posted about this, and I coudn't confirm...can you post the procedure for your testing and the results?


nF

[jorgen]

I working on new zoom buttons, coming soon.

At the moment zoom by
1) pressing + and -
2) select some parts and press ctrl and +
3) mouse wheel in meter window
4) ctrl + mouse wheel in arrange window
5) add markers, then click on marker text in mixer or select the marker from the marker track "..." button

jorgen

[Pädy]

You can choose in the "Master" section of the sequencers mixer to switch between "Int" or "Ext"...if you choose "Ext" you will need to adjust the tempo in the Main window under the synchronizer for it to take affect.

I see. Pardon my ignorance but what's the point of the main window synchronizer now that the sequencer does have a metronome? Well, what was the point of it thus far anyway? It always stroke me as being useless.

not on my machine, unless I have "Ext" selected.

If you set the sequencer metronome to 'internal' and alter the tempo there, I would expect the VSTi to follow the this tempo setting. You say it does with your machine. It sure doesn't on mine. I just rechecked.
That's what I do:

- Start eXT and insert a seq comp.
- Set the seq metronome to internal
- Insert an instance of FM7 for the first Midi track
- Hit a key -> I hear a repetitive synth pattern (first preset)
- I alter the tempo in the seq comp -> nothing happens
- I alter the tempo in the main window -> the synths adjusts to this setting

Same applies to any other VSTi I throw at it.

Snapping fine here...it's not supposed to snap to the "grid"...it snaps to your "Snap" settings

Yes, I know. I was referring to the snap settings, wasn't I?

Ok, looks like I have to explain this in more detail.
I have recorded audio. The audio part is of a certain length - with a 99% chance it won't exactly end at the end of a bar. Now I want to resize that part so it fits into a certain number of bars.
I click and drag the end of the part. Since the snap setting is set to 4, it should resize to one fourth of a bar - which includes the beginning and end of a bar.
What happens here is that the part snaps to certain places (and they visually look like fourths of a bar)but they are not in sync with the arrangement. Actually they look like they are offset exactly the amount my audio part strays from the grid. But that's just guessing. Anyway, when I now select any other snap setting and do the resizing again, this time it will be in sync with the arrangement. When I go back to the previous snap setting, it will be in sync as well this time.

This clearly is a bug.

What "other" host are you talking about? ...Are you sure you are not adding any gain to the signal path? ...XT's faders do not add gain...this is probably what your confused about....I ran some tests in FruityLoops and CubaseSX2 when you first posted about this, and I coudn't confirm...can you post the procedure for your testing and the results?

This is how I tested this:

I connected my Mini-Disk player with my Multiface and let it play back a short sequence (roughly 10 sec) in loop. In the hosts I simply connected the input directly to the output so that I could hear the Mini-Disk signal. Needless to say that I made sure that the signal was not amplified by the hosts in any way. For measuring the levels I used DigiCheck 4.2 - this software comes with all RME Hammerfall DSP cards and is specifically designed for things like the task at hand; it very accurately measures the input and output signal.
Hosts: eXT, Tracktion, Cubase SX 2.2

Results:

Input signal (what the audio card's driver receives): Was the same for all hosts. Not surprising, since I fed them with the same sequence each.

Output signal (after the signal has gone through the hosts): eXT: max Peak was -6dB / Tracktion: max Peak was -2.5dB / Cubase SX 2.2: max Peak was -2.5dB too.

So, this clearly states that eXT somehow weakens the signal. Further investigations showed that it's eXT's Master Input that is relatively low. This explains why all Guitar Rig and GreenMachine presets sounded different in eXT than in other hosts - it lacked punch and gain since the input signal was lower.

Ok. Now I've spent quite some time investigating - although I really should do something else. So, please before you all go and pick on me, do some thorough tests yourself. Actually all I want to happen is Jorgen coming here and posting: Doh! Nice bug hunting Pädy. Fix coming up shortly.

Cheers, Pädy

[lowkey]

Thank you for contributong to EnergyXT

I know Im not the person you want to hear from but I really do appreciate what youve done.

I think Jorgen is on some sort of coding frenzy at the moment (his girlfriend is going to kidnap him ) so dont be disheartend.

Keep bug testing Pady

[jorgen]

Pädy, please check if recoding in eXT when loaded as a VST in another host (if possible) is different from recording in the standalone.

If so, the problem has to be in the ASIO.dll.

cheers
jorgen

[NicFit]

You can choose in the "Master" section of the sequencers mixer to switch between "Int" or "Ext"...if you choose "Ext" you will need to adjust the tempo in the Main window under the synchronizer for it to take affect.

I see. Pardon my ignorance but what's the point of the main window synchronizer now that the sequencer does have a metronome? Well, what was the point of it thus far anyway? It always stroke me as being useless.

You might see the point if you performed live and used XT from the start, technically there is no "Global" synchronisation yet. There is the tempo set under the "syncronizer" which we have had for a long time, and there is the Tempo/Timeline of the Sequencer. Up to now users have no way to "sync" the two...they run at the same tempo, but on a different "timeline". In other words, if you have a MidiPart loaded in the main window with "Sync" made on, it would not necessarily start on the same beat that the sequencer was starting at...even though both are using the same tempo setting. "Global Synchronisation" is on jorgens "todo" list. Now some users asked if they could have multiple sequencers running at different tempos. Pretty soon you will be able to "trigger" markers in the Sequencer with keys and users performing live can use MidiParts in "sync" mode in the main window to trigger marked ranges in the sequencer and everything will be in sync.

not on my machine, unless I have "Ext" selected.

If you set the sequencer metronome to 'internal' and alter the tempo there, I would expect the VSTi to follow the this tempo setting. You say it does with your machine. It sure doesn't on mine. I just rechecked.
That's what I do:

- Start eXT and insert a seq comp.
- Set the seq metronome to internal
- Insert an instance of FM7 for the first Midi track
- Hit a key -> I hear a repetitive synth pattern (first preset)
- I alter the tempo in the seq comp -> nothing happens
- I alter the tempo in the main window -> the synths adjusts to this setting

Same applies to any other VSTi I throw at it.

Then you didn't test MicroTonic
which is what I tested with, ....you will find it works fine... but I can confirm what your saying now....but it's not all VSTi. I will add it to the Bug list.

Snapping fine here...it's not supposed to snap to the "grid"...it snaps to your "Snap" settings

Yes, I know. I was referring to the snap settings, wasn't I?

Ok, looks like I have to explain this in more detail.
I have recorded audio. The audio part is of a certain length - with a 99% chance it won't exactly end at the end of a bar. Now I want to resize that part so it fits into a certain number of bars.
I click and drag the end of the part. Since the snap setting is set to 4, it should resize to one fourth of a bar - which includes the beginning and end of a bar.
What happens here is that the part snaps to certain places (and they visually look like fourths of a bar)but they are not in sync with the arrangement. Actually they look like they are offset exactly the amount my audio part strays from the grid. But that's just guessing. Anyway, when I now select any other snap setting and do the resizing again, this time it will be in sync with the arrangement. When I go back to the previous snap setting, it will be in sync as well this time.

This clearly is a bug.

Maybe a misunderstanding how the "snap" works in XT. If your parts end is halfway between beats, and you set the "snap" to 4....then every time you adjust the end it will fall halfway between beats. If you want your part to be 6 beats long(but recorded for 7 and half beats), then double click the part to open it's editor, and you can set it's length in beats at the top. Now your parts end will snap on the beats.

What "other" host are you talking about? ...Are you sure you are not adding any gain to the signal path? ...XT's faders do not add gain...this is probably what your confused about....I ran some tests in FruityLoops and CubaseSX2 when you first posted about this, and I coudn't confirm...can you post the procedure for your testing and the results?

This is how I tested this:

I connected my Mini-Disk player with my Multiface and let it play back a short sequence (roughly 10 sec) in loop. In the hosts I simply connected the input directly to the output so that I could hear the Mini-Disk signal. Needless to say that I made sure that the signal was not amplified by the hosts in any way. For measuring the levels I used DigiCheck 4.2 - this software comes with all RME Hammerfall DSP cards and is specifically designed for things like the task at hand; it very accurately measures the input and output signal.
Hosts: eXT, Tracktion, Cubase SX 2.2

Results:

Input signal (what the audio card's driver receives): Was the same for all hosts. Not surprising, since I fed them with the same sequence each.

Output signal (after the signal has gone through the hosts): eXT: max Peak was -6dB / Tracktion: max Peak was -2.5dB / Cubase SX 2.2: max Peak was -2.5dB too.

So, this clearly states that eXT somehow weakens the signal. Further investigations showed that it's eXT's Master Input that is relatively low. This explains why all Guitar Rig and GreenMachine presets sounded different in eXT than in other hosts - it lacked punch and gain since the input signal was lower.

Ok. Now I've spent quite some time investigating - although I really should do something else. So, please before you all go and pick on me, do some thorough tests yourself. Actually all I want to happen is Jorgen coming here and posting: Doh! Nice bug hunting Pädy. Fix coming up shortly.

Doh! Nice bug hunting Pädy!... ...sorry, I didn't mean to "pick on you". I did not test the input recording levels, my bad. I only tested rendering of wavs and instruments triggered internally. I just connected two machines together through ADAT and transfered some audio into XT and can confirm your exact findings...Jorgen has written his own "ASIO" dll, which apparently needs to be "tweaked".

Thank you Pädy, sincerely...again, I didn't mean to pick on you.

nF

[Pädy]

Pädy, please check if recoding in eXT when loaded as a VST in another host (if possible) is different from recording in the standalone.

If so, the problem has to be in the ASIO.dll.

cheers
jorgen

I checked and yes eXT in Tracktion does not weaken the signal. Looks like it's the ASIO.dll after all.

You might see the point if ... ranges in the sequencer and everything will be in sync.

Thanks for your explanations NicFit. That didn't sound like the way I plan to use eXT though. For me it's just another nice (and cheap) sequencer with a responsive developer, a lot of potential and an easy workflow. Basically I want to use it for linear sequencing just like I use Tracktion and Cubase. Plus when it develops in certain areas (mainly audio and part editing) I can recommand it for my students as a cheap alternative sequencer.

Maybe a misunderstanding how the "snap" works in XT. If your parts end is halfway between beats, and you set the "snap" to 4....then every time you adjust the end it will fall halfway between beats. If you want your part to be 6 beats long(but recorded for 7 and half beats), then double click the part to open it's editor, and you can set it's length in beats at the top. Now your parts end will snap on the beats.

When I try to set the number of beats in the audio editor it always snaps back to 32 beats or less, but not more. The audio part I tried it with was set to 91 beats originally and I wanted to make it even bigger but 32 was the most I could manually set. Am I doing something wrong?

Anyway, resizing and trimming in the arrangement is the major feature request for me. In every sequencer that's the most used thing for me - one reason why I like Tracktion so much; it's so easy there.

Btw, can you explain me the following:
In the audio editor, when I select the audio clip there's another wave form poping up at the bottom of the window. I found out that I can resize the audio clip by draging the two little squares left and right. But there seems not to be an option to make those squares snap to the grid. If that's true it's entirely luck whether the clip is still in sync after editing - especially since you cannot zoom in vertically.

Doh! Nice bug hunting Pädy!... ...sorry, I didn't mean to "pick on you". I did not test the input recording levels, my bad. I only tested rendering of wavs and instruments triggered internally. I just connected two machines together through ADAT and transfered some audio into XT and can confirm your exact findings...Jorgen has written his own "ASIO" dll, which apparently needs to be "tweaked".

Thank you Pädy, sincerely...again, I didn't mean to pick on you.

Thanks for confirming and never mind about the picking.

Cheers, Pädy

[Pädy]

Thank you for contributong to EnergyXT

I know Im not the person you want to hear from but I really do appreciate what youve done.

I think Jorgen is on some sort of coding frenzy at the moment (his girlfriend is going to kidnap him ) so dont be disheartend.

Keep bug testing Pady

Thanks lowkey for your nice words.

Cheers, Pädy

[jorgen]

When I try to set the number of beats in the audio editor it always snaps back to 32 beats or less, but not more. The audio part I tried it with was set to 91 beats originally and I wanted to make it even bigger but 32 was the most I could manually set. Am I doing something wrong?

it's a bug, the beat selector is not supposed to be there when yuo open the audio editor from the sequencer (only from the Audio Part comp). will fix.

To resize you can
1) click in the 6 rightmost pixels on the audio part and drag to any size
2) select the audio part and press alt + left/right arrow key

cheers
jorgen

[Pädy]

Ok. But can you make resize such that when I set snap to '4' resizing a part makes its length snap to every fourth of a bar - which in 4/4 is every beat. As it is now, it takes the absolute length of the audio part and resizes the part relative to that length.
And please, can we resize the beginning of a part too. That's normally where I have to adjust the part.

Cheers, Pädy

[jens]

And please, can we resize the beginning of a part too. That's normally where I have to adjust the part.

Cheers, Pädy

Yes, I second this

I've been longing for this for a long time - why I never brought it up is beyond me

[NicFit]

might as well join in the chorus and say that I'd prefer this way of snapping since it gels better with what I use to be use to(if that makes sense)


nF

[silicon/silicium]

or a button to set napping to absolute or relative. inst' it???

[jens]

I edited my quoting for the sake of clarification

now it's rather a kanon than a chorus though