KVR Audio

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:08 pm

PAK wrote:Great job Peter!

Anyone who's attempted this stuff knows just how much micro-tweaking is involved sometimes. It can be very ear-fatiguing work.

Did you see Roland just announced their own Jupiter Legacy Collection btw? Before anyone gets excited: it's Roland copying sounds, from several of their past synths, for inclusion with the Jupiter 80 hardware synth. But I couldn't help thinking it'd be quite funny if these OP-X copies managed to stack up better than Rolands own Jupiter 8 copying attempts. So far history might be on Peter's side (cough)VariOS8(cough)

Hmmm. I don't think the sound architecture of the Jupiter-80 can replicate enough the Jupiters to allow a recreation of these sounds through synthesis (let alone the fact that th Jupiter-4, Jupiter-6 and Jupiter-8 are considerably different from each other). So, Roland is probably talking about sampling expansion packs, which wil not add much to the myriad of sampling packs already available on the market.

braj · Post by **braj** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:27 pm

I have a question Ingo, are you making money with your Jupiter soundbank, ie. are you making it for Arturia or are you selling it anywhere? Because if you are I would find it very distasteful for you to be badgering Peter like this.

Peter999 · Post by **Peter999** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:39 pm

Ingonator wrote:I might be wrong but the preset used in your demo seems to sound significantly different to that in the soundbank.

Hi Ingo

I only can repeat that the clip was done playing the preset 11 23 Echo Piano as it is in the PROII_JUPITER8FACTORIES bank, directly recorded to disk. What else should we have used? The only thing that *might* (I don't remember) have been slightly adapted is to increase the envelope attacks a tad bit.

Just as a hint how to play (I remember it was a bit tricky), I tried to play the very beginning of the echo piano clip once more. I had to audition it again to play the whole once more fluently. Here's the midi file:
http://www.sonicprojects.ch/opxpro2/demo/echopiano.zip

Maybe it's not too helpful for your bank to check with OP-X PRO-II since I guess that the Jupiter-8v translates parameter settings differently, close to the real Jupiter-8 (hopefully) so that the sound should be close already after copying the patch sheet settings. Unfortunately this has not worked in that simple way with OP-X PRO-II, the sheets just were a help. The main reference just were the synthmania clips, and it mainly was a pure listening-tweaking job, not copying settings. The goal was to come as close as possible to the original sources with the final sound, regardless if the settings in the end are different than the ones in the patch sheets. This quite often also is the case, and some stuff simply couldn't be copied. There's a detailed report about all of this in the "readme" file included in the collection.

carrieres · Post by **carrieres** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:58 pm

braj wrote:I have a question Ingo, are you making money with your Jupiter soundbank, ie. are you making it for Arturia or are you selling it anywhere? Because if you are I would find it very distasteful for you to be badgering Peter like this.

Ingonator wrote:As some people know since a while i work on reprogramming the Jupiter 8 factory sounds with Arturia Jupiter 8V myself. Reprogramming the patch sheets is done and now i am working on optimizations. Those will be published as a free bank too as soon as i think they are close enough.

Ingo

braj · Post by **braj** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:59 pm

carrieres wrote:
braj wrote:I have a question Ingo, are you making money with your Jupiter soundbank, ie. are you making it for Arturia or are you selling it anywhere? Because if you are I would find it very distasteful for you to be badgering Peter like this.

Ingonator wrote:As some people know since a while i work on reprogramming the Jupiter 8 factory sounds with Arturia Jupiter 8V myself. Reprogramming the patch sheets is done and now i am working on optimizations. Those will be published as a free bank too as soon as i think they are close enough.

Ingo

Cool, thanks for setting me straight.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:06 pm

braj wrote:I have a question Ingo, are you making money with your Jupiter soundbank, ie. are you making it for Arturia or are you selling it anywhere? Because if you are I would find it very distasteful for you to be badgering Peter like this.

No, as i already mentioned i will publish the bank for free like Peter did. I would add a download link here but i have not done optimizations for all presets now, also because i have done some other stuff during the last 7-10 days.
As a side note i have already started all this before Peter announced that he will do a bank too...
On the hother hand what is so strange about an attempt to recreate the original Jupiter factory sounds using a Jupiter 8 emulation? Really strange or not?

This was not meant to do any harm to Peter BTW, i was surprised that the preset sounded totally different than in the demo which Peter published. If thais is really based on the style of playing it could mean that his preset fits to that specific audio demo from Synthmania but not to the original patch sheet.

I'll try to check this with the midi file that Peter published.

As Peter already mentioned it would be maybe a good idea to do my optimizations based on the original audio demos like i have already done. The basic settings based on the patch sheets should work better with the Jupiter 8v than with Op-X Pro II a Peter mentioned. The parameter ranges in Op.-X Pro II seem to be much different (e.g. the envelopes in OP-X Pro seem to be much faster).

Peter999 wrote:
Just as a hint how to play (I remember it was a bit tricky), I tried to play the very beginning of the echo piano clip once more. I had to audition it again to play the whole once more fluently. Here's the midi file:
http://www.sonicprojects.ch/opxpro2/demo/echopiano.zip

Many thanks, Peter. I'll try to do 2 more demos using your midi file with my own preset and yours with the OP-X Pro II demo version.

UPDATE:
Using your Midi file your preset seems to sound in your demo indeed. Your preset seems to rely very much on the playing style indeed. With different playing style it sound like the demo i published here at the page before.

Ingo

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:18 pm

considering how poor factory sounds are for old analogues, im suprised anyone bothers to copy them

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:34 pm

Ingonator wrote:
braj wrote:I have a question Ingo, are you making money with your Jupiter soundbank, ie. are you making it for Arturia or are you selling it anywhere? Because if you are I would find it very distasteful for you to be badgering Peter like this.
No, as i already mentioned i will publish the bank for free like Peter did. I would add a download link here but i have not done optimizations for all presets now, also because i have done some other stuff during the last 7-10 days.
As a side note i have already started all this before Peter announced that he will do a bank too...
On the hother hand what is so strange about an attempt to recreate the original Jupiter factory sounds using a Jupiter 8 emulation? Really strange or not?

Ingo

as you are just copying the work of others from a patch sheet, wont you have to get permission from the original source before presenting such a thing anyway?

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:58 pm

vurt wrote:
Ingonator wrote:
braj wrote:I have a question Ingo, are you making money with your Jupiter soundbank, ie. are you making it for Arturia or are you selling it anywhere? Because if you are I would find it very distasteful for you to be badgering Peter like this.
No, as i already mentioned i will publish the bank for free like Peter did. I would add a download link here but i have not done optimizations for all presets now, also because i have done some other stuff during the last 7-10 days.
As a side note i have already started all this before Peter announced that he will do a bank too...
On the hother hand what is so strange about an attempt to recreate the original Jupiter factory sounds using a Jupiter 8 emulation? Really strange or not?

Ingo
as you are just copying the work of others from a patch sheet, wont you have to get permission from the original source before presenting such a thing anyway?

I don't think so. Not as far as i could think of.
Copyright should be only be important for audio samples but not for reprogramming patch sheets. If it would be like that than many other factory sounds for other synths could be illegal too.

Peter should have done the same then so maybe he could chime in.

Ingo

Ingo

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:07 pm

not really.
hes doing some work, using his ears and skills to get to the sounds.
whereas you are using other peoples work and copying the settings.

Peter999 wrote: The main reference just were the synthmania clips, and it mainly was a pure listening-tweaking job, not copying settings.

id check with a lawyer if i were you.

Peter999 · Post by **Peter999** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:18 pm

Ingonator wrote:
UPDATE:
Using your Midi file your preset seems to sound in your demo indeed. Your preset seems to rely very much on the playing style indeed. With different playing style it sound like the demo i published here at the page before.

Ingo

Yep, that's true. This btw was one of the patches that gave some headache too to me in the beginning since I simply was not successful to achieve the pongy darkish piano style sound of the synthmania demo, it simply didn't sound right because I tried to play it in normal way as you did in the beginning and the patch was wrong. The first wrong trials (but that sounded nice by themselves) btw can be found in the user patches bank, presets 11 and 12. Then I checked back several times with the patch sheets and listened carefully to the synthmania clip until I noticed that every note has that low octave introductory part before it makes the belly "ping", that's how I found how I have to play so that it sounds like the synthmania clip. The patch of course does not at all behave like a real piano, its name is a bit missleading.

Btw, if we are discussing patches already: One patch really remained a mistery to me. It's patch 13 Juicy Funk, which uses the inverted filter envelope for the "bauaaa" beginning. You can't hear it in the synthmania clip, but when you listen to other sources on youtube you notice that when the note is hold the filter sweeps down again (so "bauaaaaaaaaoooooooouuuuuuuuummmmmmmmm") which in fact is impossible with the inverted filter envelope, it had to had a further segment for this. With a long decay and release it vice-versa should sweep up in fact instead of down because of the inversion. But it weeps down in the sustain phase. This somehow must be a special behaviour of the Jupiter-8 envelope in inversed mode, somehow losing voltage during the sustain phase or something alike. I have no other explanation for it, since this downsweeping should not be there read from the patch sheets.

EDIT:
I was blind. I found out what it is. It's a very slow lfo modulation towards the filter, it has nothing to do with the envelope. This somehow got forgot. Should be still added in patch 13. Somtething I'm however still not sure is if the LFO in the original Jupiter-8 is key triggered or free running. From the audio clips I heard I often would guess key triggered. But this had to be answered by someone who owns the device.

mclane · Post by **mclane** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:22 pm

Kriminal wrote:considering how poor factory sounds are for old analogues, im suprised anyone bothers to copy them

This may be true for most old analogue synths, but I think the Jupiter-8 had some really nice and usable stuff in its factory presets.

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:31 pm

vurt wrote:not really.
hes doing some work, using his ears and skills to get to the sounds.
whereas you are using other peoples work and copying the settings.

Peter999 wrote: The main reference just were the synthmania clips, and it mainly was a pure listening-tweaking job, not copying settings.
id check with a lawyer if i were you.

Copyright issues? Really? This is becoming a complete paranoia. How could it be that using a bunch of numbers in a sheet for reprogrammming a sound in another instrument (doesn't matter how close it is) fall under the laws of copyright?
Following your (IMO absurd) logic, then anyone who says he copied the sound of a patch into another patch for another synth would fall under copyright issues too (as Peter did, effectively and confessedly). Anytime anyone copies a setting someone else used in a Hammond Organ would fall under copyright too. And so on, and so on. This copyright paranoia has to come to an end, if I may say so.
AND he is doing it for free, so...

klagga · Post by **klagga** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:48 pm

Come on and make the plugin for 64 bit already!

Do that and I'll buy it in an instant.

Don't tell me the 32 bit plugin works with a bridge, I've tried it and it's the only thing in my computer that over and over again crashes the system.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:07 pm

fmr wrote:
vurt wrote:not really.
hes doing some work, using his ears and skills to get to the sounds.
whereas you are using other peoples work and copying the settings.

Peter999 wrote: The main reference just were the synthmania clips, and it mainly was a pure listening-tweaking job, not copying settings.
id check with a lawyer if i were you.
Copyright issues? Really? This is becoming a complete paranoia. How could it be that using a bunch of numbers in a sheet for reprogrammming a sound in another instrument (doesn't matter how close it is) fall under the laws of copyright?
Following your (IMO absurd) logic, then anyone who says he copied the sound of a patch into another patch for another synth would fall under copyright issues too (as Peter did, effectively and confessedly). Anytime anyone copies a setting someone else used in a Hammond Organ would fall under copyright too. And so on, and so on. This copyright paranoia has to come to an end, if I may say so.
AND he is doing it for free, so...

Besides that some additional informations:

1.) i will publish the bank for free (as already mentioned several weeks ago...) so i will not earn a cent with this one

2.) i always mentioned the source of the audio demos and the website with the patch sheets, in this case Synthmania

3.) i have to do slight or in some cases even big changes to the settings in the patch sheets which makes it mor or less an "original" work

4.) Even copying the settings 1:1 takes lot's of work not mentioning trying to optimize those presets which does not always mean making huge changes to the parameters

5.) I did not "steal" Peters work as i started this before he even mentioned he would do a Jupiter 8 bank. You could check this thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=45

Ingo

Jupiter-8 Factory Patches for OP-X PRO-II released! Listen to comparison clips - free download!