Tone2 Gladiator 3 (public beta)

[mevla]

With Icarus to me Tone2 went to a new level.

For those interested, Icarus runs fine in Linux/Bitwig using wine-staging and linvst.

And then I tried Ray Blaster ... whoa. That one is really along the lines of the music I do.

[fmr]

Just like slapping a few filters in Photoshop does not give Adobe any IP on my photos.

I think the right comparison with creating wavetables would be to create brushes in Photoshop to be used as resource in your own graphic application. I think Adobe might have a few words to say about that too. ....

No, I don't think that's a right comparison. A right comparison would be using Photoshop to create graphic textures to use as content or fillers on another product. And Adobe would not have a single word to say about that.

Like they don't have a word to say if someone creates a skin in Photoshop for any synth being sold and sells that skin.

[EnGee]

With Icarus to me Tone2 went to a new level.

For those interested, Icarus runs fine in Linux/Bitwig using wine-staging and linvst.

And then I tried Ray Blaster ... whoa. That one is really along the lines of the music I do.

You might be interested in Nemesis as well It has very similar workflow to RayBlaster but with completely different sound. I just regret now that I didn't give enough demoing to those two synths years ago! They are now from my top favourite synths. The secret is in tweaking the big knobs while playing the keys

Next buy will be Gladiator as it has monstrous oscillators

[Urs]

Just like slapping a few filters in Photoshop does not give Adobe any IP on my photos.

I think the right comparison with creating wavetables would be to create brushes in Photoshop to be used as resource in your own graphic application. I think Adobe might have a few words to say about that too. ....

It's about intellectual property in the form of data. Few algorithms are known to mankind which, once processing a set of data, transfer the copyright of that data to the creator of said algorithm.

[bbtr]

Problem is, as Markus said, you are competitors. He's selling a wavetable synth, and you intend to use it to make wavetables for your wavetable synth.
I don't know if it's legal, but it doesn't seem ethical.
Because tone2 has 'a sound', it comes from various stages in the synth, but firstly from their oscillators, and even before that, from their tools that generate these oscillators - they're tone2-enhanced tools. And some of their functionality is unique. So even if you make your own wavetables from scratch, some of the tone2 sound and know-how will be right there in your synth. Which you will profit from. So he's objecting to that.

Tried to simplify as much as possible.

[Urs]

Problem is, as Markus said, you are competitors. He's selling a wavetable synth, and you intend to use it to make wavetables for your wavetable synth.
I don't know if it's legal, but it doesn't seem ethical.
Because tone2 has 'a sound', it comes from various stages in the synth, but firstly from their oscillators, and even before that, from their tools that generate these oscillators - they're tone2-enhanced tools. And some of their functionality is unique. So even if you make your own wavetables from scratch, some of the tone2 sound and know-how will be right there in your synth. Which you will profit from. So he's objecting to that.

Tried to simplify as much as possible.

You seem to overlook that I would pay for a license.

Nevermind, there's a whole lot of weird bias towards what's ethical and what isn't in the audio community. Just look at how controversial Berhinger's effort to bring back Curtis chips was discussed. So much nonsense about ethics. Have Curtis been "unethical" by doing nothing for 30 years, or has Behringer been "unethical" by bringing them back? Is it "unethical" for me to use Tone2 products for my own business purpose or is it "unethical" of Tone2 to claim some sort of copyright infringement when I do?

Thing is, when Eric Persing came to me one day and said, pointing at Zebra, "we used this a lot!", I was proud as f**k. I can't see anything unethical about it. He didn't sample factory presets and he didn't infringe trademarks. I guess it's a question of mindset. I don't understand Markus' mindset, but I respect it. We'll neither use nor recommend his products for content creation. In my observation that is a lost opportunity.

[bbtr]

Yes, I agree it's weird, both law and ethics are quite vague and could be interpreted in any number of ways.
If he doesn't want competitors to use his know-how, he shouldn't give them access to that. But once he has, and you've shown interest, and he's objected, it would be only right to respect what he said. Although it may be contrary to what the law permits.

[mevla]

You might be interested in Nemesis as well It has very similar workflow to RayBlaster but with completely different sound.

I did give it a try. Or tried to. Nemesis seems to be have been made using a different UI approach because the UI will not show. No problem with Gladiator, Ray Blaster, Electra, Icarus, but Nemesis, no. I run those deno synths in Linux using Bitwig. My policy so far is that, if it does not run the first time around I do not insist. Using this I still wind up with many high quality synths and audio plugins. So no, Nemesis did not run and no problem since the others can provide a lot on their own. I actually made a choice and went for Ray Blaster and Electra. These two offer a lot sound wise, and also learning wise.

Cheers.

[LeVzi]

Problem is, as Markus said, you are competitors. He's selling a wavetable synth, and you intend to use it to make wavetables for your wavetable synth.
I don't know if it's legal, but it doesn't seem ethical.
Because tone2 has 'a sound', it comes from various stages in the synth, but firstly from their oscillators, and even before that, from their tools that generate these oscillators - they're tone2-enhanced tools. And some of their functionality is unique. So even if you make your own wavetables from scratch, some of the tone2 sound and know-how will be right there in your synth. Which you will profit from. So he's objecting to that.

Tried to simplify as much as possible.

You seem to overlook that I would pay for a license.

Nevermind, there's a whole lot of weird bias towards what's ethical and what isn't in the audio community. Just look at how controversial Berhinger's effort to bring back Curtis chips was discussed. So much nonsense about ethics. Have Curtis been "unethical" by doing nothing for 30 years, or has Behringer been "unethical" by bringing them back? Is it "unethical" for me to use Tone2 products for my own business purpose or is it "unethical" of Tone2 to claim some sort of copyright infringement when I do?

Thing is, when Eric Persing came to me one day and said, pointing at Zebra, "we used this a lot!", I was proud as f**k. I can't see anything unethical about it. He didn't sample factory presets and he didn't infringe trademarks. I guess it's a question of mindset. I don't understand Markus' mindset, but I respect it. We'll neither use nor recommend his products for content creation. In my observation that is a lost opportunity.

You are right about that , ethical behaviour doesn't come into it. Does it Urs.

[EnGee]

You might be interested in Nemesis as well It has very similar workflow to RayBlaster but with completely different sound.

I did give it a try. Or tried to. Nemesis seems to be have been made using a different UI approach because the UI will not show. No problem with Gladiator, Ray Blaster, Electra, Icarus, but Nemesis, no. I run those deno synths in Linux using Bitwig. My policy so far is that, if it does not run the first time around I do not insist. Using this I still wind up with many high quality synths and audio plugins. So no, Nemesis did not run and no problem since the others can provide a lot on their own. I actually made a choice and went for Ray Blaster and Electra. These two offer a lot sound wise, and also learning wise.

Cheers.

Oh I see! In Windows 10 I don't have any problem with Nemesis. It is strange that when it was released I just cancel it with only first minute demo I just saw it not like a DX7, so what's the point! Anyway, as I'm more open minded now (I hope!) I tried to understand what is this synth. I'm glad I did as it clicks with me very fast although it is a complex synth in reality! I'm still on Page 25 of the manual, but I think I had a general idea of all and I already did two presets from init.

RayBlaster has some learning curve of course, but it is very interesting and sounds completely different from Nemesis. I think those two synths are very underrated (maybe were only by me ).

Electra is easy to pick up and fast to start tweaking/making presets. It can do big sounds due to the layers, but it seems I begin to have allergy to layers (Largo and Dune 2 come to mind). But I believe you did a good choice as RayBlaster can fill in the gaps that Electra leaves. I think using the two together brings interesting results

[bmrzycki]

Let’s say I’m working on a drum loop library and I create a sound with Reason’s Kong synthesis modules. I sample the output and Then I load it into Icarus, mangle it some more and sample that output. Then I take that sample and load it back into Kong’s NN-Nano and add more final touches. According to Markus’ posts this sample is not mine and I have to ask permission to use it beyond the license of Icarus I purchased.

Let’s say I am granted a license to make a Refill and it sells well. So I decide to make a Kontakt version of the kits. Do I have to ask Tone2 again? It’s unclear. What if 2 years later Propellerhead comes to me to license the Refill for Reason 12’s factory bank. Do both me and Propellerhead have to come back and ask permission from Tone2? It’s unclear.

In effect this sample is tainted and must receive careful legal treatment for any commercial endeavors. There is no other audio mangling tool I know of with this restriction. This essentially means I am hesitant about using Icarus for anything that isn’t a song and isn’t a Tone2 present and severely limits its usefulness to me.

[LeVzi]

Let’s say I’m working on a drum loop library and I create a sound with Reason’s Kong synthesis modules. I sample the output and Then I load it into Icarus, mangle it some more and sample that output. Then I take that sample and load it back into Kong’s NN-Nano and add more final touches. According to Markus’ posts this sample is not mine and I have to ask permission to use it beyond the license of Icarus I purchased.

Let’s say I am granted a license to make a Refill and it sells well. So I decide to make a Kontakt version of the kits. Do I have to ask Tone2 again? It’s unclear. What if 2 years later Propellerhead comes to me to license the Refill for Reason 12’s factory bank. Do both me and Propellerhead have to come back and ask permission from Tone2? It’s unclear.

In effect this sample is tainted and must receive careful legal treatment for any commercial endeavors. There is no other audio mangling tool I know of with this restriction. This essentially means I am hesitant about using Icarus for anything that isn’t a song and isn’t a Tone2 present and severely limits its usefulness to me.

Nah not at all, use Icarus for your work as you want, and forget the bullshit started in this thread. Use Icarus and enjoy it. There are no restrictions.

[AnX]

Any sound made by a Tone2 product contains an audio watermark....

How?

[fmr]

Any sound made by a Tone2 product contains an audio watermark....

How?

I think this is BS. It would have to be creating watermarks in realtime, note after note.

[AnX]

Any sound made by a Tone2 product contains an audio watermark....

How?

I think this is BS. It would have to be creating watermarks in realtime, note after note.

Not really, it could be a continuos stream on the output of the synth. No idea how tho...