Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
10217 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:05 am

I notice that in many modern plugins I have to switch my GEM S2 to channel pressure because the software doesn’t react to polyphonic aftertouch. Is this something really difficult to implement? Seems like all the U-He and Arturia synths do, but even with MPE compatibility, the new Obsession from Synapse Audio does not. It’s part of the MIDI standard... why not implement it?
Zerocrossing Media

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WasteLand
KVRian
842 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:28 am

polyphonic aftertouch, not many (midi)keyboards have it.
i think only the CS-80 V(3) responds to polyphonic aftertouch, of the arturia synths? pigments 2 perhaps, has certainly MPE.

MPE has always polyphonic pressure. but you have to have a MPE capable midi keyboard, the GEM S2 has a polyphonic keyboard. it is not a MPE keyboard.
MPE works different (with 16 midi channels, 15 for seperate notes, 1 channel for global).
polyphonic aftertouch are CC messages, 1 channel.

but it is a good question, why not implement poly aftertouch. it are only CC messages... but the synth must be capable to whatever the aftertouch controls/modulates, to do it per note. it is not only midi implementation, also the design of the synth itself.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

Winstontaneous
KVRAF
1857 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:29 am

While I don't have a piano-style keyboard with poly aftertouch, I got used to having it on my Akai MPD32 pad controller and took advantage of it regularly when using VAZ Modular in my Windows days. Not sure if Poly AT was a common feature when I bought the MPD32, or if many pad controllers have implemented it since.

WasteLand
KVRian
842 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:06 pm

Winstontaneous wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:29 am
While I don't have a piano-style keyboard with poly aftertouch, I got used to having it on my Akai MPD32 pad controller and took advantage of it regularly when using VAZ Modular in my Windows days. Not sure if Poly AT was a common feature when I bought the MPD32, or if many pad controllers have implemented it since.
most pad controllers have aftertouch, even poly. like push 2 and maschine mk3, it only does not work in ableton (poly, channel aftertouch works), in maschine (no aftertouch at all).
i had forgotten about that.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
4416 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:41 pm

The main reason is, that implementing it needs per voice modulation. MPE synths can do it in principle, the others mostly not, and why bother if there are almost no keyboards which support it...
Of course any CS-80 emulation has to, I wonder if Arturia will add MPE at least to the CS-80 V. They support it in Pigments, they know how to do it, and it would be a logical enhancement...

felis
KVRian
651 posts since 25 Jul, 2009

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:47 am

I didn't know till recently that the two kinds of poly-at are different.
Regular poly-at uses one midi channel, and MPE poly-at uses all 16 midi channels.
So with MPE, you're basically stuck with mono-timbral if you're using one midi port,
unless I misunderstood something.
I don't really use it at all, but if I did, I'd prefer regular poly-at.

User avatar
EvilDragon
KVRAF
19806 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:24 am

With MPE you could totally have 16 different sounds on each MIDI channel. Fun stuff.

WasteLand
KVRian
842 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:37 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:24 am
With MPE you could totally have 16 different sounds on each MIDI channel. Fun stuff.
i believe it is 15, one midi channel is for global stuff.
but 15 different sounds, is already mayem...

about the CS-80, it does not have to implement MPE, you can change your MPE controller, i think, to a single channel mode, with poly aftertouch. (roli can do it, i think joué en sensel, and the others could do it also).
playing the CS-80 with poly-aftertouch, on a roli (roli seaboard block), is great, the full power of the synth unleashed. it was meant to be play with poly-aftertouch (of course some patches don't need it), but is part of the design.

of course they make it MPE, but than the emulation is "gone", and why not. for me not necessary.

yes pigments 2 has MPE, and works great with MPE.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

WasteLand
KVRian
842 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:42 am

felis wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:47 am
I didn't know till recently that the two kinds of poly-at are different.
Regular poly-at uses one midi channel, and MPE poly-at uses all 16 midi channels.
So with MPE, you're basically stuck with mono-timbral if you're using one midi port,
unless I misunderstood something.
I don't really use it at all, but if I did, I'd prefer regular poly-at.
why not in one message, i am lazy...

with MPE you are not stuck with mono-timbral, with roli (and i believe in other MPE controllers, like joué and sensel morph, and then the expensive ones), you can set the roli in different modes,
for the CS-80 V3, for example, i use single channel, change the setting for poly aftertouch. and it works.

so a MPE controller can also be used for non-MPE synths. articulation for a Mini V3, for instance, but one note, one sound.
but i am making a template in voltage modular to make none-MPE synths, MPE synths, you have to load multiple instances within voltage modular. i for now, use 4 instances, is enough.
but also without voltage modular (MPE module + plugin host module), you can do still some great stuff for none MPE synth.

i know only about roli, because i bought the roli...
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

User avatar
e-crooner
KVRAF
1959 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 am

In my view, with EDM, which most people using plugins seem to make, the subtleties of using poly AT are superfluous. So, most computer musicians don't get an expensive poly AT keyboard. Developers know that...

chk071
KVRAF
24697 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:02 am

I'm also pretty sure that developers know what their customers want/need. And, I'm also absolutely positive that MPE is a much bigger thing these days than polyphonic aftertouch ever has been.

TBH, I don't even use monophonic aftertouch... but, that doesn't have to mean anything, because I'm not a "player" type at all.
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

User avatar
e-crooner
KVRAF
1959 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:27 am

Same here, my keyboard does not support any AT, my previous one did but I never used it because my playing is just not good enough, I am already happy when I manage to hit the right keys :hihi:

chk071
KVRAF
24697 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:00 am

True. I always hit the black ones. :D
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

Chrisk-K
KVRist
70 posts since 4 Jun, 2020 from USA

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:13 am

I took classical piano lessons for 7 years before playing any synths. Obviously, the piano is mightily expressive without offering AT. So, since my synth day 1, I have never cared about AT.

WasteLand
KVRian
842 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:29 am

i am not a educated keyboard player far from it. but i use aftertouch, and now MPE.
thé synth has also MPE... (which i don't own...).
of course it is understandable that aftertouch, poly aftertouch or MPE has no use for you.
not all synths, or synthesis, or.. or.. instruments.. or .. or effects have use for you.

piano, has three pedals, i always forget the other two, sustain, damping (it is called someting) else, and... o well, and a real piano, how you strike a key. so much articulation. and how the piano is build, etc. etc. and treated piano's. so in a way it isn't that far fetched.

is it interesting for everybody, aftertouch, poly aftertouch or MPE. of course not. it was you need, or want.

for me, aftertouch was already important (and strangelely even if you aren't a good player, you can achieve with aftertouch, more..), poly aftertouch is a nice touch, MPE, is sounddesign level. which i like, sounddesign (not at an expert level, my level...). o well, even with "simple" aftertouch, i could get some nice results (and of course, after the fact automation).

so many ways to achieve.... (fill in)
Last edited by WasteLand on Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
win 10 pro; cubase 10.5 pro, live 10 suite+push 2, reaper, reason 11 suite, bitwig studio 3, maschine mk3+jam, arturia V collection 7, korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM, meldaproduction etc.
https://soundcloud.com/sada-exposada

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