Do I “need” analog synths?

[BasariStudios]

After having accumulated a LOT of actual Analog Gear and also a huge Modular plus
owning almost every softSynth out there, yes you DO need Analog Gear.

[acYm]

I'm sorry but thats just an implicit excuse for hardware manufacturers who seam to have not yet figured a way to properly implement 14bit MIDI on regular (none endless rotary) knobs despite the fact that MIDI supported it 30+ years ago. Check the muffwigller thread I posted above to see how people tried numerous controllers without being satisfied. My self included.

MIDI supported it 30 years ago, sure, on a single controller, the one it was meant for: the mod wheel. does MIDI even have the available bandwidth to replace all 126 normal CC with 14-bit ones? sounds quite far out of spec to me, but I'm not the electronics expert.

I like to think that at this point, if hi-res MIDI was the solution, it would be acknowledged and someone in the market would act on it. It does nothing about the problem of facilitating a universal control device - on the contrary, if each VST dev has the responsibility of providing their own MIDI implementation and scripting, which is required for 2-way communication to be of any use, it's nothing but anarchy.

I'm checking out the other thread and so far, I'm seeing one dude who, like me, realizes we live in a physical world with physical limitations and is saying pretty much what I've been saying, someone called Widdly.

[S0lo]

MIDI supported it 30 years ago, sure, on a single controller, the one it was meant for: the mod wheel.

That would be the pitch bend. And even that is not usually 14 bit in controllers/hardware I've tested. Usually less than that, it skips values in between.

The reason you hear every thing smooth though is that most softsynths have clever smoothing automatically applied.

does MIDI even have the available bandwidth to replace all 126 normal CC with 14-bit ones? sounds quite far out of spec to me, but I'm not the electronics expert.

Briefly speaking, MIDI supports 14bit for 32 controllers of the 128 using something called MSB/LSB (in which case the number of controllers goes down to 32 14bit CCs + 64 7bit CCs). But if thats not enough, MIDI also provides other means to support 14bit using NRPN messages.

I like to think that at this point, if hi-res MIDI was the solution, it would be acknowledged and someone in the market would act on it. It does nothing about the problem of facilitating a universal control device - on the contrary, if each VST dev has the responsibility of providing their own MIDI implementation and scripting, which is required for 2-way communication to be of any use, it's nothing but anarchy.

I would say, just think about this for a moment. When you tweak an analog knob, the voltage generated passes through ALL in between values. in doesn't SKIP values. If digital wants to be like analog in terms of resolution, then it has to at least commit to passing through ALL values in it's advertised resolution, in this case 14 bit.

[SomeCallMeFamous]

I have both analog and VA stuff.
thing is different flavors for different duties !

Here what is currently use in my studio and the other part is in storage...
But VA just is able to do more.

[acYm]

ok so now we're making it even more complex and out-there by throwing nrpn's into the mix. somehow I can imagine why the device makers aren't lining up to release nrpn-based control surfaces. ugh.

from the get go, you're in the digital world. a potentiometer regulating an analog circuit has an infinite amount of values between the start and end point, whereas a digital one simply does not. all you can possibly hope to get is software with parameters that are meant to be handled in real-time in the first place. when you do, it works well. what cannot ever work well, is counting on software makers to provide solid midi implementations themselves, when so few can provide comprehensive automation to begin with... and I've never seen a vst where somehow you could assign midi on a param and get finer control than automation provides

[S0lo]

As I said. 32 controllers already support 14bit without NRPN.

[acYm]

right, but 32 is nothing. I know vst's that need several hundreds of assignments.

what I don't understand is, what is a 14-bit midi knob supposed to be able to do or solve that an automation-wired knob can't, and since automation control works so universally well, why even consider midi at all?

[JCJR]

Hardware midi about 3000 bytes/sec or approx 1000+ midi events/sec depending on type distribution of messages and efficiency of running status (which also depends on stats of the midi stream's content).

However if notes have to share the same pipe with controllers and such, unless the sequencer software is smart enough to prioritize for note timing (difficult to do in bulletproof fashion) then a busy midi stream will start "crowding note timing away from ideal time location" at event densities much lower than the theoretical 1000+ events/sec.

So you can use multiple hardware pipes, multiport interfaces. With 8 ports, up to 8 x 1000+ events/sec.

Alternately in theory and also maybe sometimes in practice, if you have USB controllers hotwired to computer and USB midi synths, then the USB pipes might have lots faster thruput than din midi.

I have only been using reaper lately with a Motu 8 ports usb interface on a purt fast PC. Maybe some modern softwares have less play thru midi latency but playing a hardware synth soft-thru reaper has noticeably worse playthru latency than direct connect keyboard to synth. Almost as bad as softaynth playthru latency and big reason I hate softsynths is the intolerable sluggish play thru latency. On playback the software compensates purt well but that doesn't keep live playing from feeling too sluggish.

O think some of the earlier sequencers which concentrated on midi and not audio had much better play thru midi timing on old computers hundreds or thousands of times slower than modern fast PC's.

But on the idea of a CC going thru every value, it needs a sequencer running higher midi timing resolution than seems common and without the higher midi timing res a real fast midi over usb still wouldn't help.

For instance a sequence running 125 bpm at 480 ppqn is 1 midi tick/Ms. So if you record a mod wheel whipping from 0 to 127 in 10 Ms, a fast finger flick, that is enough time to record or transmit about 10 mod wheel messages if each event gets it's own sequential time tick. 10 events not 127 events. So you can't send every single 127 events on it's own time tick even of a USB midi could carry the bandwidth. Given only 10 ticks you would need to send 12 or 13 events on each tick. Even if your sequencer uses a much higher ppqn, I doubt that most PC's, midi interfaces, and the timers commonly used by sequencers are fine grained enough to accurately "really do it".

But many synths have some interpolation smoothing built in, I think, or it would generally work even worse than it does.

And if you flip a mod wheel all the way in a few Ms, how many ears will know whether the synth responded to 10 events vs 127 events in that 10 Ms?

That's just with 7 bit controllers. It would get really crazy trying to send every intermediate value at 14 bit.

[christian f.]

After having accumulated a LOT of actual Analog Gear and also a huge Modular plus
owning almost every softSynth out there, yes you DO need Analog Gear.

Funny, I have TONS of modern and vintage analog AND a Big Modular system too.
Out of about 20 mostly analog tracks I released in 2018, my biggest hit this year was completely made in the box.
You really DON'T need analog synths.

[risome]

IMHO i believe you need a combination of analogue for warmth, digital for cold and real recordings for uniqueness

[S0lo]

right, but 32 is nothing. I know vst's that need several hundreds of assignments.

right, but most hardware controllers don't have several hundred knobs/pots. Usually 20 or 30ish any way. Plus you Don't HAVE to use 14bit on all controllers. Plus you still have 64 7-bit controllers remaining. You can use both 14bit and 7 bit at the same time.

what I don't understand is, what is a 14-bit midi knob supposed to be able to do or solve that an automation-wired knob can't, and since automation control works so universally well, why even consider midi at all?

a 14-bit midi knob CAN BE an automation-wired knob.

[deastman]

After having accumulated a LOT of actual Analog Gear and also a huge Modular plus
owning almost every softSynth out there, yes you DO need Analog Gear.

Funny, I have TONS of modern and vintage analog AND a Big Modular system too.
Out of about 20 mostly analog tracks I released in 2018, my biggest hit this year was completely made in the box.
You really DON'T need analog synths.

I agree. You don't really NEED much of anything. What matters most is the composition, the choice of notes, the arrangement, the overall vibe, and if you have vocals, the delivery and lyrical content matters more than anything else. The quality of your detuned sawtooth waveforms is way down the list in terms of importance.

Of course there are plenty of perfectly good reasons to buy a lot of real analog synths. I've certainly done it. But that has to do more with preferred working methods and the process of creation than with the end results.

[S0lo]

You need it to convince your self that you don't need it.

[lfm]

After having accumulated a LOT of actual Analog Gear and also a huge Modular plus
owning almost every softSynth out there, yes you DO need Analog Gear.

Funny, I have TONS of modern and vintage analog AND a Big Modular system too.
Out of about 20 mostly analog tracks I released in 2018, my biggest hit this year was completely made in the box.
You really DON'T need analog synths.

I agree. You don't really NEED much of anything. What matters most is the composition, the choice of notes, the arrangement, the overall vibe, and if you have vocals, the delivery and lyrical content matters more than anything else. The quality of your detuned sawtooth waveforms is way down the list in terms of importance.

Of course there are plenty of perfectly good reasons to buy a lot of real analog synths. I've certainly done it. But that has to do more with preferred working methods and the process of creation than with the end results.

Wise words -

[christian f.]

I agree. You don't really NEED much of anything. What matters most is the composition, the choice of notes, the arrangement, the overall vibe, and if you have vocals, the delivery and lyrical content matters more than anything else. The quality of your detuned sawtooth waveforms is way down the list in terms of importance.

Of course there are plenty of perfectly good reasons to buy a lot of real analog synths. I've certainly done it. But that has to do more with preferred working methods and the process of creation than with the end results.

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