MusicDevelopments

Navonod123 · Post by **Navonod123** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:22 pm

Ladies and Gents;

I apologize if I haven't delved deep enough into RapidComposer to do this properly - let me first say that I'm very impressed with RapidComposer so far, and see its potential as a very useful tool in my own writing work.

The Mac build sometimes fails to properly switch 'views' (going from editor to editor or back to the main composition window, occasionally hanging).

But the question/suggestion I had relates to the way RapidComposer treats phrases as an extension of a given chord. RapidComposer could be an even more powerful tool (at least to me) if a phrase could instead be an extension of the implied scale or mode! (Again, I apologize if I'm just missing a current feature... please point me in the right direction if this is the case).

By my understanding, a phrase currently relates to a given chord using the 'note index' values of root-third-fifth, and extra notes (2nds/9ths, 4ths/11ths, etc). This makes sense when dealing with diatonic music, but doesn't allow for the flexibility needed in dealing with modal music, bitonality, or interesting extra/passing notes (obviously those things can come into play once MIDI is imported into your DAW).

In diatonic systems like what RapidComposer currently deals in, a phrase is inextricably linked to a chord - 'extra notes' in a phrase that imply 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc. won't automatically be used unless it's a 7, 9, 11, 13, etc. chord (unless I'm mistaken... so far, this has been the case in my experiments with it, however).

WHAT IF a phrase was not necessarily linked to the notes of the chord, but the MODE that the chord implies? Further, what if one could change that mode regardless of the chord? For example, a V7 chord would imply a Mixolydian scale beginning on the Vth degree of the key (or the root of the V7 chord). By then changing the 'mode' of the phrase, one could easily switch up the 'flavour' of the phrase. This may present some challenges, and bring to mind some requirements:

i) User dictates the root and mode of the implied scale that is linked to an instance of a phrase (most flexible) OR the mode is always built on the root of the chord (doesn't allow for phrases that rub chromatically with the root of the chord)
ii) inversions of a phrase would then be single-note up and down along the scale/mode. (C-E-F#-G in a C lydian mode becomes D-F#-G-A when shifting one note up)
iii) no longer linking the phrase to the chord, but rather (initially) to the mode the chord implies (and/or restricting notes only to chord values) - this is an important point; this would allow it to act in the way the RapidComposer currently runs, and allow it the flexibility to change the mode of a phrase.

These stipulations still all imply 7 note scales, which may be as far is it can go, but with the linking of phrases to modes rather than chords, RapidComposer would become so much more flexible!

What are you thoughts?

lulukom · Post by **lulukom** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:29 am

Yes, I agree, I do not have enough on the appointment of mods that are not tied to the chord, but, of course, the program should offer the scales and modes that can be applied to the corresponding chords (I would like to choose from a list of mods that can be assigned the master track chords, but rather let each track has a selection of scales and mods)
sorry for my english...

como baila · Post by **como baila** » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:58 pm

Thoughts? You're music theory skills are way beyond me!

However, any harmonically correct 'option' that could improve the variety of phrases could only be welcomed.

Even those of us who understand poorly or barely at all can experiment away with the wonderful WYSIWYH ... what you see is what you hear.

The development has been fantastic so far ... and I know Attila has stated he intends to work on the chord palettes and scales to bring them more in line with theory than with the statistical 'data mining' upon which they are currently based.

musicdevelopments · Post by **musicdevelopments** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:46 pm

Hi Navonod123,

thank you for your suggestion. I've read your post several times.
It is possible to change the scale/mode for the duration of a chord even today.

i) User dictates the root and mode of the implied scale that is linked to an instance of a phrase

Would you like a menu that offers all modes/scales for that given chord? This would be easy to add, and the phrase would use the notes from that scale. Please note that the scale is not linked to the phrase but the phrase uses the chord and scale from the master track.

ii) inversions of a phrase would then be single-note up and down along the scale/mode.

This already works when you use scale notes only in a phrase (Note mapping: Scale+semi in phrase editor). When you transpose such phrase it behaves as you described. But this phrase is independent of the harmony as you wrote in iii).

I am not sure I fully understood your suggestion, so please write more examples. I'll implement every sensible suggestion once I understand it

Thanks,
Attila

Navonod123 · Post by **Navonod123** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:48 pm

Hi Attila!

Amazing coding - this is such a cool tool! Sorry I've been unclear - I'm just excited about the possibilities here, and am so happy you're a hands-on creator with your clients - I'm very happy I bought this thing!

(jump down for a helpful example illustrating my feature request)

Regarding point i)
It would be terrific to have a pull-down menu to select a different mode for a phrase, limiting the notes of the phrase to the mode the user selects - however, it would be best if it worked in a such a way that it could function completely independently from the chord and scale of the master track. This would allow for the greatest flexibility for the writer - essentially every chord change could potentially have a change of mode (default setting would be the mode implied by the chord within the key).

There's something you said that I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around - I'm just not understanding it correctly, I think: "Please note that the scale is not linked to the phrase but the phrase uses the chord and scale from the master track." Can you clarify what (in this case) the "scale" is in the first part of your sentence?

I think I'm looking for something that allows for weird impossibilities, ie. forcing the phrase to play within a mode that ISN'T allowed by a given chord (which linking it to the master chord or scale wouldn't allow for). In doing such a drop-down list or pop-up menu you could colour code the modes like you have done in other instances (making the out-of-key chords red is brilliant).

Your answer to point ii) relates to this. When you transpose a phrase with scale+semi (very powerful already), it keeps the general shape of the phrase (good), but does a straight transposition keeping the interval relations within a phrase the same, unless I'm mistaken. So, a phrase that outlines a minor triad remains a minor triad, and transposes chromatically. It would be helpful to be able to transpose along a diatonic mode (rather than chromatically, and keeping the interval qualities exactly the same). With such a system, an outlined minor triad could become a major one by shifting it along a different diatonic mode.

HELPFUL EXAMPLE: I've been thinking about this system as it relates to the way that harp pedals work. You may already know all this: each harp pedal corresponds to a different set of strings (all the A's, all the B's, all the C's, etc.). In depressing a single pedal, it stretches that set of strings (all the A's become A#s). By going the other way, it loosens the set of strings (all the A's become Abs). Essentially it's a modal instrument, but not limited to diatonic, 7-note scales. I'm suggesting something akin to this, but a little simpler (ie. limiting to diatonic 7-note scales. I wouldn't know how to handle going from, say, a 7-note scale to a 4-note cluster; or even more complicated, the other way around. Some sort of 'rounding system' would have to be decided on. But this is a digression).

Here's an example that may make it clear:

Consider a harp scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B. A regular major scale.
Consider a phrase that fits within this: C-E-F-G-B-A.

Now let's "change the mode" to something outside of the master key and scale. We'll depress a harp pedal making a lydian mode built on C.*

harp scale becomes: C-D-E-F#-G-A-B
phrase becomes: C-E-F#-G-B-A

if shifted up one diatonic note within that mode, the phrase becomes:
D-F#-G-A-C-B.
and again:
E-G-A-B-D-C **

In this transposition, you can see that although the general shape of the phrase remains the same, the intervals within it change, so it's a diatonic transposition, and not a direct, chromatic transposition (you can see that between these corresponding pairs C-E-F#-G-B-A and D-F#-G-A-C-B, we've gone from a minor 2nd to a major 2nd.

Going from C major to C lydian (C major with an F#) isn't currently allowed, since F# is not in the key of C by way of the master key/scale. You could get around that if the entire piece was based on that mode (by simply basing the piece in G - one sharp), but it wouldn't allow for constant modal changes that I'm suggesting.

What do you think?

* Conceivably, it could become flexible to the point that the user could even create custom non-standard diatonic modes. Consider a 7-note scale that isn't a diatonic mode: C-Db-E-F#-G-A#-Bb

** At any point, you could shift to another mode:
The C lydian phrase C-D-E-F#-G-A-B could become a C dorian mode (C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb) making the original phrase become C-Eb-F-G-Bb-A.
An immediate shift to B dorian mode: B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A makes the phrase become?... herein lies a problem: how is the phrase linked to the mode? Does the phrase become B-D-E-F#-A-G# (link to the mode is by FIRST NOTE of the phrase) or C#-E-F#-G#-B-A (link to mode is like a harp, and arbitrary). I think the second way, since you can easily shift around the phrase as you like. A simple click-drag would be enough to reposition the phrase to B-D-E-F#-A-G# if that is what you desired.

como baila · Post by **como baila** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:48 pm

Your goal as I understand it, diatonic transposition, is fantastic.

I can imagine that it would not be to difficult for a Phrase Generator to be 'unlinked' from the master track.

But this would present several potential problems. First, I think a phrase could then only be as long as the current chord ... for as soon as you moved on the master track to the next chord change whatever you had set up would no longer apply. You'd have to 'micromanage' all your phrases.

Secondly, what about all the underlying other tracks (assuming you have several in the composition)? Would you propose to simply pull the phrase down to all playing tracks? This could be tedious.

I think it would work best if it were tied to the chord in the master track ... but that a phrase could be a diatonic variation selected in the phrase generator.

Alternatively, for that chord position in the master track, why not add a variation right there to pick a modal scale through the chord palette? It seems to me that that would be most elegant.

If I misunderstand ... sorry! But I still think the idea of a 'global' for that point in the composition under control of the master track would be great.

Navonod123 · Post by **Navonod123** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:18 pm

Hi como baila!

But this would present several potential problems. First, I think a phrase could then only be as long as the current chord ... for as soon as you moved on the master track to the next chord change whatever you had set up would no longer apply. You'd have to 'micromanage' all your phrases.

This is an excellent point, and one that I hadn't considered. How could you treat a phrase that extends over a chord change (and conceivably a change of mode)? I don't mind micromanaging phrases, but this indeed could be a problem. I still maintain that dictating modes for each phrase would be more powerful than forcing a mode for each chord change, but doing it that way could be a good compromise.

Secondly, what about all the underlying other tracks (assuming you have several in the composition)? Would you propose to simply pull the phrase down to all playing tracks? This could be tedious.

I'm not clear what you're describing here - underlying tracks (other phrases, chords, etc.) for every chord change, a "default scale/mode" for that chord would apply to all phrases, all potentially changeable by the user - the mode change would affect the phrases under that chord, but not, say, the chord generator which would only use the chord value.

I think it would work best if it were tied to the chord in the master track ... but that a phrase could be a diatonic variation selected in the phrase generator.

If we're dictating a mode for each chord change, this would need to also apply to user-defined phrases, not only generators, but yes!

Alternatively, for that chord position in the master track, why not add a variation right there to pick a modal scale through the chord palette? It seems to me that that would be most elegant.

YES!

Again, for maximum flexibility, dictating modes for each instance of a phrase, phrase generator, etc. would be best, but if you could dictate the master track mode underneath a scale, it would be a compromise, but it would be okay.

A situation that would be impossible using your method is if you might want phrases within the chord (adhering, as they currently do, with the chord value), and phrases running concurrently that are in a different mode (a juxtaposition of modes under a single chord).

ie. C major chord value, a background phrase texture in the C ionian (tonic) mode, and then an outside phrase melody that is based in F# locrian or something bizarre.

como baila · Post by **como baila** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:57 pm

Yes, my method from the master track selecting modes would not add chromatic intervals ... but then you could always change that track from phrases to midi notes or make those changes later in a DAW sequencer?

I said: Secondly, what about all the underlying other tracks (assuming you have several in the composition)? Would you propose to simply pull the phrase down to all playing tracks? This could be tedious.

You said: I'm not clear what you're describing here - underlying tracks (other phrases, chords, etc.) for every chord change, a "default scale/mode" for that chord would apply to all phrases, all potentially changeable by the user - the mode change would affect the phrases under that chord, but not, say, the chord generator which would only use the chord value.

What I meant was if you change a phrase in a track to be 'unlinked' from the master track ... that only works for that phrase. If you have multiple tracks at that point in time for the composition, all the others will be playing controlled by the master track. I can see this for a melody line ... something Ornette Colemanesque ... but generally don't see how it would work if all the other voices on the other tracks playing at the same time are still adhering to the master track harmony selection.

I hope this makes it clear.

Navonod123 · Post by **Navonod123** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:05 pm

What I meant was if you change a phrase in a track to be 'unlinked' from the master track ... that only works for that phrase. If you have multiple tracks at that point in time for the composition, all the others will be playing controlled by the master track. I can see this for a melody line ... something Ornette Colemanesque ... but generally don't see how it would work if all the other voices on the other tracks playing at the same time are still adhering to the master track harmony selection.

Yes, I understand. The most flexible way remains having to unlink all the voices on other tracks from the master track harmony/mode. Unfortunately it is also the more time-intensive, but again, more powerful.

como baila · Post by **como baila** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:52 pm

Navonod123 wrote:
What I meant was if you change a phrase in a track to be 'unlinked' from the master track ... that only works for that phrase. If you have multiple tracks at that point in time for the composition, all the others will be playing controlled by the master track. I can see this for a melody line ... something Ornette Colemanesque ... but generally don't see how it would work if all the other voices on the other tracks playing at the same time are still adhering to the master track harmony selection.
Yes, I understand. The most flexible way remains having to unlink all the voices on other tracks from the master track harmony/mode. Unfortunately it is also the more time-intensive, but again, more powerful.

But if we 'unlink' them all ... wouldn't it be simpler to simply change the chord selection in the master track to another chord and use the mode that contained ... in your example ... and F# in addition to the notes from C Major diatonic?

I'm not certain which chord/ mode that would be (something in G Major?) ... but I bet you're able to figure it out.

como baila · Post by **como baila** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:55 pm

For what it's worth ... I think this is also related to the whole issue of showing the chord palette with the diatonic chords of the selected chord, i.e., for C Major, Dm, Em, F, etc.

Atilla has already said that he intends to revamp this to reflect the diatonic chords instead of the current setup of just using the scale note.

A perfect time to incorporate your diatonic modes, I think.

musicdevelopments · Post by **musicdevelopments** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:27 pm

Hi Navonod123!

It already works the same way as you have described in your example.
I made a screenshot with some explanation, I hope it is not too confusing. Click for bigger size: http://www.musicdevelopments.com/clydian.png

It would be helpful to be able to transpose along a diatonic mode (rather than chromatically, and keeping the interval qualities exactly the same). With such a system, an outlined minor triad could become a major one by shifting it along a different diatonic mode.

Right, this is how it works today. Transposition is not chromatic.

If I understand this well, what you'd like is that a specific phrase do not follow the master track scale/chord, but all other tracks do. While it is tempting to assign a scale/chord per phrase, it would be too confusing. The clean solution would be to have 2 master tracks, A and B, where you can set up different scales and chords, and you could choose which track should use which master track.

An immediate shift to B dorian mode: B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A makes the phrase become?... herein lies a problem: how is the phrase linked to the mode?

The phrase is linked to the mode by the way it is defined, that is each note represents a scale degree. While you can freely transpose these notes, the distance between them (in scale steps) does not change.

Thanks,
Attila

Navonod123 · Post by **Navonod123** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:28 pm

Attila! This is awesome!

Clearly I did not delve deeply enough - looking forward to running some tests using this.

Thanks so much!

Navonod123 · Post by **Navonod123** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:13 pm

Attila, I'm having a little trouble duplicating what you've done.

I can access the master track chord and scale in the way you have, and perhaps my fault is in constructing the phrase:

When I place that phrase on the chords/scales we picked, I cannot transpose it such that the phrase begins on D (2 semitones up) on the second bar. It will transpose immediately to begin on an E, but not a D. Can you steer me in the right direction?

Navonod123 · Post by **Navonod123** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:19 pm

Got it figured. Note mapping in phrase must be Scale+semi.

Nice!

MusicDevelopments

KVR Audio

Scales and modes as they relate to phrases SUGGESTION