KVR Audio

antto · Post by **antto** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:55 pm

did you mean SpectralHead Audio's SilverBox? ;]
if that's so, that's a synth made by Peter Schoffhauzer, a guy who i admire, and who helped me a lot in understanding DSP and SE_SDK2
and yes, the Synth has a unique PianoRoll sequencer, that is NOT like an external PianoRoll
i would like to have such a PianoRoll on my synth too (would makes things even simpler) but would really need to code my own display modules, and that would require a lot of WinApi/GDI code /* i _hate_ dealing with winapi */

and actually, the SilverBox from SpectralHead Audio is done by professionals in my opinion ;]

Z3R0T0N1N: thanks ;]
you really understand my point of vision here ;]
yes, that SilverBox is different than a PianoRoll, it could be called a "303-style PianoRoll" because you edit the whole pattern directly
this is the only way to make a 303 with a pianoroll work, while not doing any compromises on CPU usage or 303 sound ;]
respect to Scoof (i believe this was his idea there)

Honestly, it might seem a bit odd at first, but learning to use this step sequencer is SO worth it, trust me. Put a bit of time in, you won't be dissappointed.

you are absolutely right! ;]
and it will be even better, when there's a nice User Manual to it, explaining the features of the sequencer (it has a lot non-303-specific ones, made for the ease of use)
tho, some of them showed bugs, i'll fix them
keep it acid ;]

grymmjack · Post by **grymmjack** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:43 am

antto wrote:grymmjack: thank you for this reply..

well, i'm not sure i know the synth you're talking about
maybe it does sound OK when played with the keyboard, but one thing is sure no matter what: you would have to write your patterns differently in a PianoRoll then in a step sequencer
i'll give you an exact example:

hi

yes it's the spectralhead audio one. it's my favorite.

assuming there's the normal time mode, where 16 steps are placed in four beats, so there are 4 steps per beat, and the Gate of each step is normaly half the length of the step..

step2 C3 + Gate + slide
step3 D3 (no gate, no slide)
sequencer starts reading step2:
since step3 has no gate, and no slide - the pitch will remain C3
but the gate will continue even on step3, and will fall down half the way between step3 and step4

step2 C3 + Gate + Slide
step3 D3 + Gate (no slide)
sequencer reads step2:
since there is Gate on step3, the sequencer will start sliding the pitch from C3 to D3, and this starts from step2! and ends right when step3 begins

you see?
i think you can't normaly make a slide from step16 to step1 in your pattern if you're doing it in a Piano roll, since if you extend step16 to be 2 steps long, then your DAW will think the pattern is 17 steps long
am i wrong?
also, to make the equivalent of a slide on step1 you would have to move step2 almost over step1..

sure i understand what you mean, but the 2 hosts i use, live and orion have great piano rolls and they let you do "hanging notes" so that if he last note overlaps, it is a continuation (legato style) to the first, live and orion both allow this.

in ABL2, the velocity can be used to add accent, and legato notes are "slid" automatically - when not using it's internal sequencer.

the gate is handled by tracking note on/note off. this is how silverbox works as well i believe.

i threw away the external sequencing mode for my synth, because the circuit would have to be more complicated.. also the CPU usage would go higher
there's no other reason

about the modulation.. i'm not sure i understand what you're talking about..
something like the FLStudio cutoff/reso values for each note in the PianoRoll?
i used my synth in just one track for now, the track itself need a lot of work (it's not even finished)
i did some automation simply by recording it.. pressing the Record button and FLStudio records my knob movements, it's really simple, i guess other DAWs have similar feature to this

modulation of the parameters of the synth using native vst parameter automation provided by the host; in orions case this is called pattern and song events, and in live it's called clip envelopes or automation. it's when you make adjustments to the parameters over time through a CC like event, which you draw in using lines and graphs (in the case of orion). i was just saying that precise automation is a lot of fun and orion can do it with flair, and live with it's clip envs is also awesome. the point i was making when i brought it up was to simply illustrate that when playing a TB303 without the sequencer, you can emulate thes sequencer like behavior things through automation.

so i think you are wrong OP about "synth mode" being kiddie sounding for a TB303 plugin.
actually i meant a slightly different thing
think of what is inside a software emulation of the 303 for a moment
on the one hand there is the synth itself (a trivial circuit of the from OSC>VCA>FILTER)
then there are two EGs that are somwhat different that any other EG circuits
first, there is a mechanism to compare the velocity, to tell the EGs if there is Accent, or not
then the EGs act differently upon that
so now, so far this is a "synth" that has Pitch/Velo/Gate
pluging a keyboard with velocity sensable keys (how do you call them.. erm) then you will hear a silly sound out of it

the software emulators that have External sequencing mode don't do it like that
they have another mechanism right after the keyboard, to fix the sillyness
it is half a sequencer..
it tryies to do what the sequencer does but with an unknown "next step" probably using the current as "next" and the previous as "current"
but that's hard to do, and it means also, that the user behind this keyboard should better know how the "mechanism" expects the input, to be able to play it right to get the right sound

hm.. really difficult to explain these details
just believe me, external and internal sequencing are different
to make the synth act well with the external sequencing is hard (gotta make a good mechanism, and the user has to be careful)

audio demos? well my ugly unfinished track, tho it doesn't concentrate on the 303s, they are very quiet in there..
http://www.box.net/shared/0ktj0tcijs
the first one is distorted, the second one isn't but actually can't be heard clear ;]

i spent a lot of time with the GUI too, thanks ;]

thanks for the audio demo will have a listen when next at my DAW (on daddy duty currently - daughter is cutting teeth whee!)

i really like your UI skills man. it's feeling very hardware, it's just so damned small. keep in mind i'm almost 35, and am blind as a freaking bat, but use LCD flat panel monitor at 24" size at 1680x1050 native res, if you revisited the UI and made it somewhat bigger i think people would be very grateful. it looks like you did it in a 3d package so is it possible without loads of work? as a UI designer myself i know how cumbersome the animations can be, it's just difficult to read everything and you've crammed everything in very well. it's very gol-like in terms of spacing and size which funny enough you own flstudio so go figure

(i adore gols work but it's a bit small sometimes).

grymmjack · Post by **grymmjack** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:45 am

Z3R0T0N1N wrote:why so many people trying to convince antto to make this synth externally played? there are already SO MANY simple VA synths out there which can be played with your host's piano roll. Not every synth has to have the same features. If you really don't like the step sequencer, then download TAL's Bassline, and just use one oscillator. Problem solved. Single osc VA played with piano roll

not so much trying to convince him, just giving him a run for his money on his opinion of it's utility and explaining why i like it and how i use it mainly

grymmjack · Post by **grymmjack** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:46 am

Z3R0T0N1N wrote: PS: Grym, just a question: doesn't silverbox have glide and accent built in to the piano roll? If I remember correctly, the piano roll for silverbox is slightly different from the others, specifically because it's a 303 inspired synth. I could be wrong, the last time I used Orion was version 1.

hi zero. yes it has that. a special lane for such. what's cool really about silverbox is it can act as a wicked little arp too, so as you play, the same pattern is offset and starts with the key you play, and since it can send midi out, it's really a great little box. one of my favorites

antto · Post by **antto** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:16 am

jmh == GOL from the FruitLoops team???

grymmjack: i'm happy to know Peter, who (i believe) wrote the most significant parts of the SilverBox, he's a _coder_ really, i'm still an enthusiast i think

sure i understand what you mean, but the 2 hosts i use, live and orion have great piano rolls and they let you do "hanging notes" so that if he last note overlaps, it is a continuation (legato style) to the first, live and orion both allow this.

i didn't know that, tho, it's a nice feature i think it should be in every other host too ;]
still, you would write patterns almost 1 step earlier than with an internal seq

n ABL2, the velocity can be used to add accent, and legato notes are "slid" automatically - when not using it's internal sequencer.

the gate is handled by tracking note on/note off. this is how silverbox works as well i believe.

this is exactly what i meant when i said "a mechanism before the keyboard"
that's vital if a 303 emulation has to sound good when played externaly
but it's different, really
people who get (or are already) used to the 303-sequencer (or any sort of 303-like-seq) programing, would find external sequencing odd, and somewhat wrong/unexpected i think
at least i do..
making patterns with a built in sequencer is difficult at first, ok, you have to get used to it
but then, making patterns with an external sequencer (piano-roll) might be a little bit easier, but it could be different in the different DAWs
you can slide the last step to the first, well, i can't in my DAW
i'm not sure how the different DAWs do a velocity sliding too..
and another thing, having both methods together, what if the user decides he want's to "move" a pattern from the piano-roll to the internal sequencer (or vise-versa)?
he would have to think alot when he does this, in order to "transform" it the right way..

so, i think for me, the best thing is to use either only-external, or only-internal sequencer

i chose only-internal
then when i (or others that use my synth) get used to my sequencer programming (which is fairly not-so-complicated) i won't have a problem if i switch to another DAW, i will still be doing the same ACID with ease..

when playing a TB303 without the sequencer, you can emulate thes sequencer like behavior things through automation.

you mean like, immitating the Gimmick effect and/or envelope curves by hand with cutoff automation?
ooh, that would be like trying to dance on a rope..

i really like your UI skills man. it's feeling very hardware, it's just so damned small. keep in mind i'm almost 35, and am blind as a freaking bat, but use LCD flat panel monitor at 24" size at 1680x1050 native res, if you revisited the UI and made it somewhat bigger i think people would be very grateful. it looks like you did it in a 3d package so is it possible without loads of work? as a UI designer myself i know how cumbersome the animations can be, it's just difficult to read everything and you've crammed everything in very well. it's very gol-like in terms of spacing and size which funny enough you own flstudio so go figure Smile (i adore gols work but it's a bit small sometimes).

thanks, i was really hoping for a bit of realism for the GUI
i'm blind enough myself too, i'm afraid to use a higher resolution than 1024x768.. i would if i had a bigger monitor tho (i need to see the pixels)
well, i mentioned earlyer, i used a 3drenderer to make the knobs/lcd-digits/screws/cables everything else was Paint
i was afraid of runing out of space (from experience in a previous GUI)
i agree now when i'm looking at the final picture, it sure could be a bit bigger, tho i really like how it fits right now, and i know it won't fit like this if i make it bigger
making it a little bigger will be hard, i would basicaly have to repaint everything again..

i'm thinking of making a tool, to help me with such tasks.. i don't know
if i decide to change the GUI in any significant way - then i'd better not start doing the documentation before the new GUI is finaly ready, this means a delay for the docs (the manual will be based on the screenshot of the front/back panels, and i don't want to do it two times)

tho i will think about making some sort of a tool since i do all my GUIs in Paint generaly, and need something to help me, when i do serious changes to the graphics when i've done too much to just throw it away..

thanks ;]

Pacha · Post by **Pacha** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:02 am

Thanx, man!

Venom is perfect to live play!
Small GUI, a lot of fast switching patches, nice sound.
I shall use it even if it should become payware (or may be donationware?).

Waiting for release :)

phankiejankie · Post by **phankiejankie** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:09 am

+1 for sticking with Venom’s own sequencer. It's part of the "magic"!

Seems remaking the GUI is too much of a hassle, well, I will keep my magnifying glass for a bit longer then because it’s really needed for my 22" monitor. Luckily after a while you get familiar with where is what, which makes things a bit easier.

Plus what's with this negativity. People react like they've paid crazy amounts of dollarz for this freebie. It's clearly a project by an enthusiast that did this will a lot of passion if it stays freeware I think it's by far the best free 303 inspired VSTi around.

Keep up the good work Antto.

Nahkranoth · Post by **Nahkranoth** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:48 am

Hey, antto!
Disregard my complaints about strange behavior, everything works fine now, it was really the SSE2 issue i guess. The pattern programming is easy and fun, and with a lot of patterns there is really no urgent need for the external midi input, but it would be good anyway.
Sorry for being a n00b, but wtf are SHORTR and GMMICK knobs for, seems like I can't get the difference in sound or am I doing something wrong?
And I'd like to know exactly what for are type 1-2 switch, osc2 subtract switch.

jmh · Post by **jmh** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:11 am

antto wrote:jmh == GOL from the FruitLoops team???

Nah, that's just the level and quality of "information" you'll get from that person. As he's shown in his posts over and over.

Anyway...

This "let me play the synth from my host's piano roll" comes up every time a plugin appears that relies on a internal sequencer. Given the choices between all these 303 emulators and 'inspired by' synths, I've never understood why people insist on every one of them having this functionality.

It's almost as if people refuse to grasp the small but important differences. Or refuse to stick with those plugins that work the way they prefer things to work.

To each his own, to use a cliché. I'm happy using the internal sequencer as long as the sound coming out is worth it.

antto · Post by **antto** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:41 pm

jmh wrote:It's almost as if people refuse to grasp the small but important differences. Or refuse to stick with those plugins that work the way they prefer things to work.

To each his own, to use a cliché. I'm happy using the internal sequencer as long as the sound coming out is worth it.

thanks, i prefere post criticising my sound, because it surely needs some more touches..
i (and as you say others) have said enough about the external sequencing thing

Nahkranoth wrote:The pattern programming is easy and fun, and with a lot of patterns there is really no urgent need for the external midi input, but it would be good anyway.

would be good indeed, but more complicated to do, and more CPU usage
i won't do it

Nahkranoth wrote:Sorry for being a n00b, but wtf are SHORTR and GMMICK knobs for, seems like I can't get the difference in sound or am I doing something wrong?
And I'd like to know exactly what for are type 1-2 switch, osc2 subtract switch.

SHORTR (knob) ah, i didn't know how to call that knob, had to fit in 6 letters ;]
this knob (when turned up) makes the envelope's decay shorter
the effect can be heard when cutoff/envmod are high, and Decay/AccDecay are low
this is one of the knobs for "Tuning" not some "extra" ;]
GMMICK = Gimmick, this is the popular effect of the 303 Accent system
other emulations call it probably Accent Sweep or something
it makes the filter "bark" .. sort of, can be turned down, or pushed more ;]
that's tuning too

Osc2 Subtract: when Osc2 is used, this switch inverts the amplitude when both oscs mix together.. it doesn't have big effect when used with the Square, but it has a nice effect when used with the Saw
slightly detuning the oscs (with a Saw waveform) and turning the Subtract Mode ON you will get a Square with "cycling" PW ;]

WaveForm Type 1/2: well, if you examine the two, there's a liiitle difference in the harmonics, really little, and the shape too
there will be audiable difference when used with the distortion..
i personaly like the Saw from Type1 and the Square from Type2 ;P~
the difference is small enough to leave it to either 1 or 2

phankiejankie wrote:+1 for sticking with Venom's own sequencer. It's part of the "magic"!

Seems remaking the GUI is too much of a hassle, well, I will keep my magnifying glass for a bit longer then because it's really needed for my 22" monitor. Luckily after a while you get familiar with where is what, which makes things a bit easier.

Plus what's with this negativity. People react like they've paid crazy amounts of dollarz for this freebie. It's clearly a project by an enthusiast that did this will a lot of passion if it stays freeware I think it's by far the best free 303 inspired VSTi around.

Keep up the good work Antto.

ah, thanks, really ;]
the GUI - i had to look at it from a bit closer in the beginning too ;]

Pacha wrote:Venom is perfect to live play!
Small GUI, a lot of fast switching patches, nice sound.
I shall use it even if it should become payware (or may be donationware?).

Waiting for release

thanks ;]
well, i thought of that.. payware - no
donationware - maybe, but optional, i want the synth to be freeware, this was my inital idea.. there's too much payware already.. tho i'm not too rich myself, and i'm currently jobless (this is why i had the time to do the synth)
at the moment, it's still a Beta/unstable/buggy version, so it's just a Freeware
maybe for the next release..

antto · Post by **antto** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:10 pm

a strange thing happend, the synth was loaded for quite a while in FLStudio5
i was editing a pattern, suddenly audio stopped, and the plugin freezed, i moved the plugin window around - it wasn't redrawing anymore, it was like "hanging" like an infinite loop on the DSP side
the DAW didn't complain about anything, just that when i Saved the project - the DAW said "couldn't save the plugin's parameters" which is logical if it doesn't respond..

i have no idea why that happened, i'm still trying to reproduce the error, i couldn't yet.. too bad..

i started investigating the ClipBoard bug
it's probably my mistake there, bad initialization checkings..

i layed down some "todo" stuff..
fixing the bugs of course
..adding a few features
+ Max Reso level (switch, two options - Normal/Extreme)
+ Osc "smart" sleep mode, for efficiency
+ Pattern Shift Mode (switch) the sequencer already has this feature, i've just forgotten to put a switch for it, shifting a pattern currently shifts the whole pattern, the other option is to switch only the used steps and leave the rest of the pattern

since the synth loads FreeBee patterns (ABL plain-text format) i was thinking of adding Save-as-FreeBee-pattern too, but didn't had the time to do it

i could, if a lot of people will use it..
there are some restrictions tho..
normaly a 303 stepsequencer does not have StepLenght setting per step
so this wouldn't be saved to the FreeBee pattern (there's no way)
but anyways, might be useful for people who want to move their patterns from Venom to ABL ;]

PS: FreeBee Patterns support thanks to Mike from AudioRealism ;]

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:50 pm

antto wrote:jmh == GOL from the FruitLoops team???

Yes it is (contrary to his denial/lie)

the very same team that brought you porn in the 90's

phankiejankie · Post by **phankiejankie** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:00 pm

That was true, adult software for a mature crowd unlike FL which is kids stuff as we all know

.

antto · Post by **antto** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:23 pm

Kriminal wrote:
antto wrote:jmh == GOL from the FruitLoops team???

Yes it is (contrary to his denial/lie)

the very same team that brought you porn in the 90's

you didn't answer any of my questions, tho you continue to post..
anyways..
no one "brought me" porn in the 90's
i have a PC since the late 1998, and internet since around the early 2000
i guess everyone does things he's not proud of, the important thing is what do we do to change that..

respect for FruityLoops ;]

Kriminal · Post by **Kriminal** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:55 pm

antto wrote: you didn't answer any of my questions, tho you continue to post..

yes i did...you asked who if he was Gollum from FL, i told the answer.

ciao

Link: Venom VB-303 VSTi (Beta release)