Given the stuff in bold above, I assume BWS uses the soon-to-be deprecated code? Will there be an impact eventually for Mac users?The OpenGL deprecation
Earlier this month, Apple's developer documentation advised that active development has ceased for OpenGL and OpenCL on the Mac, and that the APIs will only get "minor changes" going forward.
"Apps built using OpenGL and OpenCL will continue to run in macOS 10.14, but these legacy technologies are deprecated in macOS 10.14. Games and graphics-intensive apps that use OpenGL should now adopt Metal. Similarly, apps that use OpenCL for computational tasks should now adopt Metal and Metal Performance Shaders," the company noted.
In software, "deprecation" means that a feature has been superseded and that while the old version should still work for the time being, it's advised to stop using it moving forward and to prepare for a future where it is removed entirely.
This created a knee-jerk reaction of clickbait warning that "developers" were revolting and waving pitchforks about the announcement. However, the main uses of OpenGL and OpenCL (the GPU-computation framework that Apple originally developed and shared with the OpenGL community) are in porting low level code between Linux, Windows and Macs. (emphasis added)
Most modern games with 3D graphics are not hard coded using low-level OpenGL. Instead, developers make use of higher-level graphics "engine" frameworks such as Epic Games' Unreal Engine 4; Blizzard's WoW and SC2 Engine; or Unity Engine. Like Apple's own higher level graphics frameworks such as SceneKit, SpriteKit and ARKit, these already make native use of Metal under the scenes.
That means the games you play today--and the new titles you'll look for in the future--won't really be impacted by the deprecation of OpenGL. They will, however, be greatly accelerated by Apple's latest advances in low-level silicon and the nearly as low-level Metal plated on top. Additionally, Metal is also supporting the deployment of advanced new applications including multiuser FaceTime in the macOS Mojave Public Beta.
OpenGL deprecation and Bitwig...
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- KVRian
- 599 posts since 8 Apr, 2014 from USA
So this caused me a bit of heartburn....
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- KVRer
- 25 posts since 25 May, 2014
"The GUI is currently rendered entirely on the CPU using Cairo graphics library."
https://answers.bitwig.com/questions/14 ... es-article
https://answers.bitwig.com/questions/14 ... es-article
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 599 posts since 8 Apr, 2014 from USA
Hmm. So they are in the process of moving to OpenGL...The deprecation has to have some implications then...
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- KVRAF
- 37527 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
I just don't understand how cross platform developers are supposed to deal with this, I mean isn't Open GL the only cross platform gpu based graphics library?
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- Banned
- 11467 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland
Why would Apple care about cross-platform developersaMUSEd wrote:I just don't understand how cross platform developers are supposed to deal with this, I mean isn't Open GL the only cross platform gpu based graphics library?
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- KVRAF
- 9581 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
Apple doesn't care, but they build nvidia or amd graphics cards into, their machines. And OpenGL runs on those and the manufacturers of graphic cards do care a little bit about cross-platform...antic604 wrote:Why would Apple care about cross-platform developers
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- KVRAF
- 37527 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Well actually they should because if it leads to companies like Bitwig stopping Mac development because they would have to create 2 sets of graphics code for different platforms that affects Mac users and Mac viability as a creative tool, which also affects sales.antic604 wrote:Why would Apple care about cross-platform developersaMUSEd wrote:I just don't understand how cross platform developers are supposed to deal with this, I mean isn't Open GL the only cross platform gpu based graphics library?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 599 posts since 8 Apr, 2014 from USA
Well said.aMUSEd wrote:Well actually they should because if it leads to companies like Bitwig stopping Mac development because they would have to create 2 sets of graphics code for different platforms that affects Mac users and Mac viability as a creative tool, which also affects sales.antic604 wrote:Why would Apple care about cross-platform developersaMUSEd wrote:I just don't understand how cross platform developers are supposed to deal with this, I mean isn't Open GL the only cross platform gpu based graphics library?
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- KVRist
- 266 posts since 20 May, 2018
Why consider OpenGL on any new project when there's Vulkan? https://www.khronos.org/vulkan/
Creator of Bitwiggers, the place to share Bitwig Presets.
Advocate for Bitwish, the place to vote on Feature Requests and discuss Bitwig.
Advocate for Bitwish, the place to vote on Feature Requests and discuss Bitwig.
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 26 Oct, 2014
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- Banned
- 11467 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland
I know they SHOULD, but it's Apple we're talking about - they've been notorious with dropping established marked standards, like CD/DVD readers, USB-C, headphone jacks...aMUSEd wrote:Well actually they should because if it leads to companies like Bitwig stopping Mac development because they would have to create 2 sets of graphics code for different platforms that affects Mac users and Mac viability as a creative tool, which also affects sales.antic604 wrote:Why would Apple care about cross-platform developersaMUSEd wrote:I just don't understand how cross platform developers are supposed to deal with this, I mean isn't Open GL the only cross platform gpu based graphics library?
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- KVRAF
- 2623 posts since 20 Oct, 2014
Well they won't add any further standard to OpenGL, but it will be kept there in the system, outdated. The available feature set though is more than enough for a 2D GUI.
I actually think that they are doing this, because too lazy to translate OpenGL to for the upcoming ARM based macbook generation, they then will use what they already have for IOS or something. ARM based macbooks would be a even greater lock-in into Apple world, the wet dream of the Apple strategists - I have no idea why that is, maybe because of hackintosh (though I cannot imagine they would stop support for Intel for at least 10 years). Or they really think that they will beat an Intel CISC CPU in near future - I could imagine that.
Maybe the next Mac Pro system will be arm based?
P.S: What I totally do not understand is the deprecation of OpenCL, too. It is not that old, only some years there are apps supporting it, and it must have been pretty an afford to make it accepted for cross platform... Any idea?
I actually think that they are doing this, because too lazy to translate OpenGL to for the upcoming ARM based macbook generation, they then will use what they already have for IOS or something. ARM based macbooks would be a even greater lock-in into Apple world, the wet dream of the Apple strategists - I have no idea why that is, maybe because of hackintosh (though I cannot imagine they would stop support for Intel for at least 10 years). Or they really think that they will beat an Intel CISC CPU in near future - I could imagine that.
Maybe the next Mac Pro system will be arm based?
P.S: What I totally do not understand is the deprecation of OpenCL, too. It is not that old, only some years there are apps supporting it, and it must have been pretty an afford to make it accepted for cross platform... Any idea?
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- KVRist
- 265 posts since 28 Feb, 2005 from Oz
Apple cares exactly zero about desktop and to a certain degree laptop hardware at this point so naturally they wouldn't be concerned about developers and openGL. There was a blog post written by popular developer Rogue Amoeba about the 'sad state of Macintosh hardware' recently which triggered an avalanche of comments on MacRumours. The reality is Apple makes their income from iPhone and their service offerings such as Apple Music and the App Store. So yeah, their care factor would be zip on depreciating hardware related software.
https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2018/06/ ... -hardware/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/po ... e.2123451/
https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/2018/06/ ... -hardware/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/po ... e.2123451/
Bitwig 6 // Reason 12 // Logic X // Soundtoys // U-he // FabFilter // Arturia // Elektron // Vintage Hardware
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- KVRAF
- 2623 posts since 20 Oct, 2014
But why also OpenCL, too???
The only reason I can imagine then really, is a upcoming arm based Mac generation. So cpu/gpu by apple, too, the perfect consumer look-in into Apple monopole, getting rid of all professionals with annoying questions.
The only reason I can imagine then really, is a upcoming arm based Mac generation. So cpu/gpu by apple, too, the perfect consumer look-in into Apple monopole, getting rid of all professionals with annoying questions.
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- KVRAF
- 9581 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
An arm based serious Mac sounds more like abandoning computers completely. I bet if they go that route, developers are more likely to support Linux - problem solved...
The only reason I am not on Linux is the lack of software support by the big guys like Cycling74...; - )
(you see my very personal interpretation of BIG, which is the opposite of Wall streets perspective...)
In the end its about software, not about hardware. Bitwig is good at cross platform, but also a bit on their own it seems. Most developers who use Juce have no problem anymore to publish on any platform... I just had a talk with Virsyn, who didn't update their vsts for years, they start to think about switching to Juce which would be the only way to maintain the desktop lines together with the iOS cash cows...
The only reason I am not on Linux is the lack of software support by the big guys like Cycling74...; - )
(you see my very personal interpretation of BIG, which is the opposite of Wall streets perspective...)
In the end its about software, not about hardware. Bitwig is good at cross platform, but also a bit on their own it seems. Most developers who use Juce have no problem anymore to publish on any platform... I just had a talk with Virsyn, who didn't update their vsts for years, they start to think about switching to Juce which would be the only way to maintain the desktop lines together with the iOS cash cows...