8DIO - My experience

[zvenx]

Dropbox doesn't stream well here. Do a right click and save link and it will play from your computer.

Although I suspect.............
rsp

[GearNostalgia]

So the goal was to add a modern choir to vintage synths... That's like going to a high end restaurant and complaining that the food doesn't palette match your Mcdonald's cheeseburger. This probably also explains why you can't seem to understand the technical info from a respected developer complete with examples and visual depictions of tones. Because yeah he was warning you about cellos.

Erm why don't you use a vintage synth choir which won't have that nasty interplay of tones and you know overtones that all REAL acoustic instruments and voices have and old synths could never get right?

PS Ain't ya glad he didn't buy Dominus, it would have been an entirely different thread on VIC! This might be the only time in history my choir would have worked better in context than yours.

You missed the part where I talked to 8Dio about this and was talked into that it would work out fine. So the main part here is not if/how to mix choirs with synths, but that they convinced me it would work and then backed out and acted totally unwilling to present any kind of solution.

I have not had any issues with Fluffy, but from Paolings numerous attempts to engage in the matter I find it hard to believe Fluffy would have led me into a bad choice and if it did(which might happen even with the best intentions) just parrot "No, read EULA.". I may be wrong but I have a feeling Fluffy would talked it out with me.

[paoling]

There's a difference. Maybe you didn't realize but even if we are competitors on some libraries, 8Dio is at least 4x times our size as employees and resources. They, as Spitfire, for example, have a separate customer service which is instructed to solve all the major issues that their customers can have. The result of this is usually a more responsive and helpful customer service, but with that bit of lack of elasticity that a business owner in person can do.

But Tawnia reached out to you (on the forum), publicly offering a refund, which seems to me the best end of this story. She posted her personal mail address in the forum to be contacted. You just have to send her a mail and get your money back. No other problems. No complaints. Issue solved. Did you do that?

But it seems that you are intentionally going on with this stuff and you have all the excuses for (citing what you said):
1) No reading in time all the replies because there were too many and you are inexperienced with forum tools
2) Not being able to reply to the latest posts because you were watching the football world cup

I mean even if 8dio was wrong (and it's not) they DID something to help you. So did you write them and asked a refund (and ignore that footer in their email, nobody can prevent you to say what you receive in your mailbox, unless they explicitly make you sign a NDA)

[zvenx]

@paoling. Well said.
+1
Rsp

[bigcat1969]

Yeah what he said. And I probably shouldn't have been so snarky, but that blew my mind....

[jancivil]

This sound is part of any choir performance.

So you say. You're actually insulting a lot of our intelligence by sticking to this.

It seems to be an artifact of recording a certain way with certain techniques in a super-reflective hall.
Based on how you argued it, using poor logic including an argument that is highly reductive and relies on a proof which itself is suspect, I don't buy it that all choirs are going to have to have this as a feature necessarily. I clearly addressed the problem of the logic but it suits you to merely reassert this as the basis for another argument, that 8DIO is 'not wrong' with this problem.

I can't know and the methodology in GN's video is found wanting as well. But there is more than one seriously unpleasant result in it which the pictures at the VI Control thread are supposed to be a slam dunk against, using theory basically which itself may be using criteria selectively to suit. I'm not buying it.

And a heads-up, for me this representation of your business is a deal-killer for me going forward. All-knowing developer against stupid end-user, yea.

[jancivil]

Let me say that's very difficult to find recordings of choirs singing forte a solo note with no instruments added which are not sample libraries. Harmony and the room mask the effect of the overtone. And not it's not an "artifact".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRL447oDId4

This is a beautiful peformance of Samuel Barber's Adagio with a Choir. Beautiful isn't it?

Now.

Listen to this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5nodiq91fpft8 ... r.wav?dl=0



This is an extract with a eq on on off on the highest dynamic part (at around 5:10).

If you hear it more as a noise than a pitch, it's because the complexity of the harmony makes it thicker than the overtone produced by a single steady note sung by a single section. But it's the very same effect. This is not an artifact. Why you hear on some notes and other not, I can't say. I hear it on all notes.

This is sophistry. It does not demonstrate that the complexity of the harmony makes an overtone not an overtone. The issue is, as far as I can tell, a super-pronounced overtone (which is a sort of artifact; tactically you're taking the word as a pejorative rather than objectively, it appears) which you now say should be on every note.
A screenshot is not audible.

You may be quite right, but I'm not persuaded by this quality of argument which seems to rely on the assumption people can't think critically.

Oh, I can't hear the dropbox or whatever mp3 link either.

[jancivil]

Tawnia reached out to you (on the forum), publicly offering a refund, which seems to me the best end of this story. She posted her personal mail address in the forum to be contacted. You just have to send her a mail and get your money back. No other problems. No complaints. Issue solved. Did you do that?

I agree that this looks suspect. I'm not sure why you are covering for 8DIO on their business model.

Arguing on their behalf as being too big to handle customers like people do dealing with people changes nothing about my experience with an_individual who didn't care that my computer was stolen, only that 10 downloads (which they allowed the thief, cutting me, the actual paying customer out) were involved with it and the impasse reached where my money is down the drain. Fortunately it isn't a lot of money and I'm happy to know what kind of developer they really are, from my own experience rather than rely on hearsay.

That said, the vendetta is getting old and expanding. So you don't want to take this as me siding with GN against you as a person. I just found the arguments there and here wanting as 'proofs' so far. I don't even know what the pictures are supposed to be showing and I wouldn't want to wear myself out working at it.

[jancivil]

This sound is part of any choir performance. And actually, contrary to what Troels said, I believe that’s part of the choir sound itself more than the acoustics of the room. The sound is more present of closer microphones and the distance actually attenuates it. And it’s naturally more evident on higher dynamics.

You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next: *that's* part of the sound itself, then *that's* more present with close mics and additionally it's more of a thing when the singing is louder. <The sound itself> as a concept turns out to be rather fungible here.

I tend to doubt the choir is going to produce this in an anechoic chamber. Seriously.
Maybe you should wonder if there aren't people reading that understand a bit more than your assumption of everybody that doesn't have the same disposition as you seems to be.

[paoling]

As I said, contrary to what Troels thinks, it’s part of the sound of the choir, not the hall. The hall “randomizes” this sound and makes it harder to spot. The sound is clearer on close microphones at higher dynamics.

I’m writing because it’s easier to defend another one (a competitor, by the way) that self defending a product I developed. I do what I wish that another developer would do for me.

But I surrender, I have to admit the superiority of two users who don’t even know how to listen to a dropbox .wav (right click open to new window/tab, play. Or right click open to new window/tab - download-direct download), they argue that my examples are worthless (without even hearing them) and don’t have any clue about how a choir sounds like.
Have a good day.

[kevvvvv]

Reading this thread, I guess we've all bought a stinker of a library now and again.

I blew hundreds on Heavyocity's Aeon Collection.

I'm not complaining about the quality but it wasn't what I really wanted.

My bad. My mistake. Just like the OP here.

I asked for a trade of some sort, or a swap, or the right to sell.

Like any other sample house my request was denied, just like OP here.

Other stinkers include some Kirk Hunter. I could find more if I combed my Kontakt library folder. I know they're in there.

But it's not worth complaining about.

Nothing's going to change.

They got your money. Get real.

It's just a disappointment

Did you expect Amazon?

[topaz]

Hi Kev

With me I have no issue with sound, that’s great.

It’s the lousy programming and scripts coupled with even worse customer support.

Aeon works perfectly afaik and if they didn’t I am sure HeavyO would fix them, unlike 8DIO who wriggle and twist to do everything but.

Reading this thread, I guess we've all bought a stinker of a library now and again.

I blew hundreds on Heavyocity's Aeon Collection.

I'm not complaining about the quality but it wasn't what I really wanted.

My bad. My mistake. Just like the OP here.

I asked for a trade of some sort, or a swap, or the right to sell.

Like any other sample house my request was denied, just like OP here.

Other stinkers include some Kirk Hunter. I could find more if I combed my Kontakt library folder. I know they're in there.

But it's not worth complaining about.

Nothing's going to change.

They got your money. Get real.

It's just a disappointment

Did you expect Amazon?

[GearNostalgia]

There's a difference. Maybe you didn't realize but even if we are competitors on some libraries, 8Dio is at least 4x times our size as employees and resources. They, as Spitfire, for example, have a separate customer service which is instructed to solve all the major issues that their customers can have. The result of this is usually a more responsive and helpful customer service, but with that bit of lack of elasticity that a business owner in person can do.

But Tawnia reached out to you (on the forum), publicly offering a refund, which seems to me the best end of this story. She posted her personal mail address in the forum to be contacted. You just have to send her a mail and get your money back. No other problems. No complaints. Issue solved. Did you do that?

But it seems that you are intentionally going on with this stuff and you have all the excuses for (citing what you said):
1) No reading in time all the replies because there were too many and you are inexperienced with forum tools
2) Not being able to reply to the latest posts because you were watching the football world cup

I mean even if 8dio was wrong (and it's not) they DID something to help you. So did you write them and asked a refund (and ignore that footer in their email, nobody can prevent you to say what you receive in your mailbox, unless they explicitly make you sign a NDA)

They did nothing to help me in any way when I contacted them as a customer numerous times stating my case. They knew exactly who I am, they don't need any more mails about the case. If she had read my case file and wanted to tell me the want to make any kind of offer they got it all. My reasons for asking for a refund are still the same, only publicly known now. It does not feel right at all that only customers that create drama should get a refund and that they should open an reconsider a new case after that.

[GearNostalgia]

Reading this thread, I guess we've all bought a stinker of a library now and again.

I blew hundreds on Heavyocity's Aeon Collection.

I'm not complaining about the quality but it wasn't what I really wanted.

My bad. My mistake. Just like the OP here.

I asked for a trade of some sort, or a swap, or the right to sell.

Like any other sample house my request was denied, just like OP here.

Other stinkers include some Kirk Hunter. I could find more if I combed my Kontakt library folder. I know they're in there.

But it's not worth complaining about.

Nothing's going to change.

They got your money. Get real.

It's just a disappointment

Did you expect Amazon?

I expected some reasonable treatment since I bought in from beeing adressed by their online salesstaff that was informing me their sale was ending, and after some nice friendly chatting convinced me that this would be a great product for me. I agree I made a misstake, I should not have acted in haste, I should have smelled the fish and googled up their reputation and stayed away. This is just me joining the malcontent crowd putting upp some new warnings so that other may avoid my mistake. Sadly I have to agree with all you say.

They got my money. They intend to keep it. They will never see another dollar from me.

As for change I think stuff will change. This always change, sometime it just take a lot of time. I made another post about the current terms to make it more clear for me and other that all developers does not have as bad terms for the customer as 8Dio. I have heard similiar stuff about EastWest in the past. Now when they have the cloud subscription I think they have left this sad situation. I believe in a better future for sound. 20 years ago I dreamt and hoped for somebody to make new analog synths. Look how many that is on the market now - dreams sometimes get real

[jsp1979]

They got my money. They intend to keep it. They will never see another dollar from me.

I'm already on record in this thread saying I dislike 8dio.

That being said, your refusal to email them to get the refund they offered (and the comments above) really make you seem unreasonable.