KVR Audio

justin3am · Post by **justin3am** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:14 pm

dave dove wrote:my ears aren't stupid...

Maybe not stupid... but I believe we can't trust our ears as well as we'd like to think. I think this is particularly true when comparing two very similar things. In the case of comparing the output of two different daws using the same sound in each, math gives us more honest results than our own perception of the sound.

I honestly have trouble hearing the difference between DAWs (yes, I have both Studio One and Ableton Live... also Pro Tools, Cubase, Reaper, Samplitude, Logic, Reason, etc.). Are my ears broken? For me, they are too close to tell and any perceived differences have a nasty habit of changing over time.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:22 pm

justin3am wrote:
dave dove wrote:my ears aren't stupid...
Maybe not stupid... but I believe we can't trust our ears as well as we'd like to think.

indeed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

dgkenney · Post by **dgkenney** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:42 pm

Hink wrote:
justin3am wrote:
dave dove wrote:my ears aren't stupid...
Maybe not stupid... but I believe we can't trust our ears as well as we'd like to think.
indeed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

Very interesting. I tried to do a null test on this but it didn't null at all. After I inverted, one track was bah and the other was haf. It was worse when I used the IK White 2A at 11k cps.

Dan

dave dove · Post by **dave dove** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:49 pm

thanks to those who are trying to help

i think what i would like is some methodology to make sure that i am achieving consistency in setting up these two hosts

i have found myself fiddling about in S1 trying to achieve the same sound i get in live
and i can't do it
it's not about which is better
i couldn't care less
i want them to sound the same...

i have checked soundcard config
i have tried taking a digital out into valve DAC + headphone amp (and valve amps) instead of mixer - this served only to clarify the differences
different monitors only accentuates or muddies the difference but it's still there
different 'phones the same
i have tried 3 different monitor amps (2 valve, one solid state)on top of my mates powered monitors

the higher the "quality" of the monitoring setup, the more pronounced the difference
have tried it on my kids and wife and they can describe what i am hearing with no prompting (really scientific i know) but they don't spend half their life listening to this stuff and they can tell

there must be something i am doing wrong

dave

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:54 pm

dave dove wrote:thanks to those who are trying to help

i think what i would like is some methodology to make sure that i am achieving consistency in setting up these two hosts

i have found myself fiddling about in S1 trying to achieve the same sound i get in live
and i can't do it
it's not about which is better
i couldn't care less
i want them to sound the same...

i have checked soundcard config
i have tried taking a digital out into valve DAC + headphone amp (and valve amps) instead of mixer - this served only to clarify the differences
different monitors only accentuates or muddies the difference but it's still there
different 'phones the same
i have tried 3 different monitor amps (2 valve, one solid state)on top of my mates powered monitors

the higher the "quality" of the monitoring setup, the more pronounced the difference
have tried it on my kids and wife and they can describe what i am hearing with no prompting (really scientific i know) but they don't spend half their life listening to this stuff and they can tell

there must be something i am doing wrong

dave

If youve gone to all that trouble (telling people you know there IS a difference will only make them hear it, thats why your family heard it. Try a double blind test and they wont hear it) , you can easily post up comparison tests, would be quicker than what youve done so far. Give us snippets of what you played your family. Then we can begin.... but I smell a rat, I bet we wont see any A B tests...

dave dove · Post by **dave dove** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:59 pm

it was a double blind...

i don't know if i can set up external recording
how would i do this so that i wasn't using each DAW's internal audio engine?
i don't use any external bits, just VSTs
and i'm not trying to prove anything to anybody
i just want to make sure my setting up is correct

the reason i did all those tests was because i didn't believe my ears...

dave

justin3am · Post by **justin3am** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:03 pm

dave dove wrote:there must be something i am doing wrong

I don't think you have done anything wrong. The mind is prone to confirmation bias.

Mushy Mushy · Post by **Mushy Mushy** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:04 pm

If you're using the same plugin chain (obvious really) then I think you're overdriving your DAW into distortion.
I use Cubase and Ableton together frequently and there is zero difference unless I'm overdriving one of them.

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:05 pm

dave dove wrote:it was a double blind...

i don't know if i can set up external recording
how would i do this so that i wasn't using each DAW's internal audio engine?
i don't use any external bits, just VSTs
and i'm not trying to prove anything to anybody
i just want to make sure my setting up is correct

the reason i did all those tests was because i didn't believe my ears...

dave

Just output to wav or 320k mp3 from both DAWS and we could hear the differnce, the fact youre stalling is why I smell a rat

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:06 pm

dgkenney wrote:
Hink wrote:
justin3am wrote:
dave dove wrote:my ears aren't stupid...
Maybe not stupid... but I believe we can't trust our ears as well as we'd like to think.
indeed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
Very interesting. I tried to do a null test on this but it didn't null at all. After I inverted, one track was bah and the other was haf. It was worse when I used the IK White 2A at 11k cps.

Dan

it is an interesting effect though and imo should put an end to all these arguments because if someone does hear a difference (whether it is real or not) why bother trying to convince them they dont? If our own mind can do this to us and we cannot convince our own brains that there is or is not a difference how on earth can we convince someone else?

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:12 pm

Hink wrote:
dgkenney wrote:
Hink wrote:
justin3am wrote:
dave dove wrote:my ears aren't stupid...
Maybe not stupid... but I believe we can't trust our ears as well as we'd like to think.
indeed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
Very interesting. I tried to do a null test on this but it didn't null at all. After I inverted, one track was bah and the other was haf. It was worse when I used the IK White 2A at 11k cps.

Dan

it is an interesting effect though and imo should put an end to all these arguments because if someone does hear a difference (whether it is real or not) why bother trying to convince them they dont? If our own mind can do this to us and we cannot convince our own brains that there is or is not a difference how on earth can we convince someone else?

On that level, there would be no discussions on digital emulations vs analogue. That would be very boring

Arglebargle · Post by **Arglebargle** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:15 pm

Hink wrote:
justin3am wrote:
dave dove wrote:my ears aren't stupid...
Maybe not stupid... but I believe we can't trust our ears as well as we'd like to think.
indeed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

Wow, that's crazy.

dave dove · Post by **dave dove** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:19 pm

Ultrajv
What's to stall?
I'm out watching my boy play football
I'm looking for help/advice
You're looking for something else
Don't like headgames much

Dave

UltraJv · Post by **UltraJv** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:24 pm

dave dove wrote:Ultrajv
What's to stall?
I'm out watching my boy play football
I'm looking for help/advice
You're looking for something else
Don't like headgames much

Dave

Cant help you without examples of what youre hearing is all. Once posted, examples usually tell people whats going on pretty quickly. Youll get to a million pages of discussion and no solution otherwise.

difference in sound...