Why you left Bitwig?

[ReleaseCandidate]

Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.

You cannot stay current with Cubase sale prices. When a new version ships, you have to pay full price if you want to stay current. Only if you are willing to not get the new version until there is a sale, can you get the sale price.

That's wrong. You can buy the update at a sale (for e.g. 10.5) and activate that later (and get 11). Same as you can do with Bitwig.

So if you have 10.5, you can buy 11 on sale before it is released?

Yes. But you must wait with the activation until 11 has been released - same as the one year update plan of Bitwig. So you can get a full version upgrade to the sales price of a half version upgrade (you have 10, buy an upgrade to 10.5 and use it to upgrade to 11). That has worked since Steinberg introduced (paid) 0.5 versions.

[pdxindy]

Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.

You cannot stay current with Cubase sale prices. When a new version ships, you have to pay full price if you want to stay current. Only if you are willing to not get the new version until there is a sale, can you get the sale price.

That's wrong. You can buy the update at a sale (for e.g. 10.5) and activate that later (and get 11). Same as you can do with Bitwig.

So if you have 10.5, you can buy 11 on sale before it is released?

Yes. But you must wait with the activation until 11 has been released - same as the one year update plan of Bitwig. So you can get a full version upgrade to the sales price of a half version upgrade (you have 10, buy an upgrade to 10.5 and use it to upgrade to 11). That has worked since Steinberg introduced (paid) 0.5 versions.

Clever...

You are still not up to date at all times cause you are not getting 10.5 when it first comes out.

[xbitz]

This is purely personal. For me it's this back and forth between Ableton and Bitwig. I'm sure many others struggle with this like I do, though. Each has very particular strengths and very particular weaknesses; so it goes. Of course, at the end of the day, I can successfully make (potentially 'great') music with either one. But, we're here because the details are important to us.

Reasons I want to use ABLETON:
• The factory FX are incredibly good, and always useful on a regular, every-day basis. I cannot say the same about Bitwig's FX.
• The piano roll is visually clear and fast to use. Bitwig's roll bizarrely makes the notes a pale color, they look 'secondary' to everything around them when they should be the primary focus element, and for whatever reason editing is always, always, slower than it is in Live, even after plenty of 'experience' with it.
• The Warping works as advertised and 99% of the time does what I want, without needing further fiddling. Cannot say the same about Bitwig's, unfortunately.
• I don't feel compelled to dump money into it on an annual basis

Reasons I want to use BITWIG:
• The Modulators, of course! The max stuff in ableton can't touch this, not even close. Just the fact that max devices take absolute control of parameters (the parameters can't be modified after you've assigned control to the max modulator) vs Bitwig's far superior approach of applying relative modulation (so the parameter can still be tweaked, as usual) is a Night and Day difference, wherein Bitwig wins, wins, wins.
• The Grid -- stacks up fine against the mighty Operator and Wavetable, which are excellent, but nowhere near as deep, of course.
• The side-by-side matrix + arrangement. A thing I've always wanted in Live, but never received...
• Bounce In Place -- the simple little rendering tool that Ableton has ignored for a decade or more...

To be honest, Modulat can solve many modulations related issues in AL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgrHsNcQTlk
maybe only the modulation of the modulated modulators which ones modulate modulated modulators etc. is still a problematic one in AL

[pdxindy]

To be honest, Modulat can solve many modulations related issues in AL

maybe only the modulation of the modulated modulators which ones modulate modulated modulators etc. is still a problematic one in AL

Modulat is not per voice with Live instruments like Bitwig modulation is per voice with Bitwig instruments.

This is a significant limitation and that is not about complex modulations of modulators modulating modulators (don't know about others but that is something I don't often do). Plus Bitwig's modulation has such a better workflow in very practical ways. This is also not about super complex modulating modulating modulations.

[Echoes in the Attic]

To be honest, Modulat can solve many modulations related issues in AL

maybe only the modulation of the modulated modulators which ones modulate modulated modulators etc. is still a problematic one in AL

Modulat is not per voice with Live instruments like Bitwig modulation is per voice with Bitwig instruments.

This is a significant limitation and that is not about complex modulations of modulators modulating modulators (don't know about others but that is something I don't often do). Plus Bitwig's modulation has such a better workflow in very practical ways. This is also not about super complex modulating modulating modulations.

And it doesn't appear that you can adjust a parameter that is the target of modulation with modulat. That's huge for Bitwig.

[pdxindy]

To be honest, Modulat can solve many modulations related issues in AL

maybe only the modulation of the modulated modulators which ones modulate modulated modulators etc. is still a problematic one in AL

Modulat is not per voice with Live instruments like Bitwig modulation is per voice with Bitwig instruments.

This is a significant limitation and that is not about complex modulations of modulators modulating modulators (don't know about others but that is something I don't often do). Plus Bitwig's modulation has such a better workflow in very practical ways. This is also not about super complex modulating modulating modulations.

And it doesn't appear that you can adjust a parameter that is the target of modulation with modulat. That's huge for Bitwig.

I recall someone saying that could be done within Modulat... not sure. But not outside obviously

It is just an add-on so it is constrained by the fundamental limitations of the app. Given that, they did a good job on it... it's just not integrated the way Bitwig is.

[mholloway]

Yeah I'm not sure a third-party app that has to be run in the host (Live) is a meaningful point, in terms of my original comparison of Live vs. Bitwig. The idea was to compare the core DAWs and the functionality they offer me, not stuff that does or doesn't get covered by additional third party apps you can load inside them.

And all that said, there's no way Live + this third party Modulat app together could compete with the fully-integrated workflow Bitwig offers, as pdxindy has pointed out already.

[EnGee]

Sure Bitwig modulators and other tools that only have similar ones in Max4Live are better!

I'm avoiding all max4live tools. I don't use or need them! They are just annoying! I always think Live is freezed when loading a preset has some M4L utility! Other than that, I prefer Live especially its fx and instruments. The workflow is very similar, so both are great. GUI and design, I mostly prefer Live. I think it's more elegant.

[xbitz]

To be honest, Modulat can solve many modulations related issues in AL

maybe only the modulation of the modulated modulators which ones modulate modulated modulators etc. is still a problematic one in AL

Modulat is not per voice with Live instruments like Bitwig modulation is per voice with Bitwig instruments.

This is a significant limitation and that is not about complex modulations of modulators modulating modulators (don't know about others but that is something I don't often do). Plus Bitwig's modulation has such a better workflow in very practical ways. This is also not about super complex modulating modulating modulations.

And it doesn't appear that you can adjust a parameter that is the target of modulation with modulat. That's huge for Bitwig.

yepp, every other given target related modulation routing has to be put inside Modulat after the Remote (last element of the modulation chains) module been assigned to some target, it's a system limitation have to live with it

I know it a third-party addon, mentioned it because this one raise the modulation capabilities of AL to an acceptable level, not as handy as the one of Bitwig but handy for sure

btw. MIDI note triggered MSEG modulator also missing from Bitwig, a device like http://maxforlive.com/library/device/4620/midi-shaper it was requested so many times hope it comes soon

ps. MIDI generators also missing from BWS like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppz0S4EP1vA
https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/midivolve/

so not easy to choose between the two (eco-)systems both ones are great

[pdxindy]

ps. MIDI generators also missing from BWS like

https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/midivolve/

It's missing from Live too... that is an add-on that costs $40-$50... adding that is no different than adding VST's

And in that case, I would rather have Riffer VST which is an excellent plugin for doing similar stuff and costs the same. Works great in Bitwig.

[Trensharo]

Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.

Cubase is $60 for a *.5 update one year and $100 for a full version update the next year, so $160 every 2 year. Bitwig is $169 every year to stay current, that's more than double. This also means that staying current in Bitwig at sale price ($129 a year) still ends up more expensive than Cubase at full price ($80 a year).

And at sale prices Cubase is even cheaper, because Cubase sale prices are usually -50%, while Bitwig goes from $169 to $129, which is around -24%.

Cubase has 40-50% off sales, as well, so that comparison is still pretty laughable.

Bitwig ends up being more expensive in the long run if you stay up to date, and it's more expensive period if you crossgrade to Cubase (since Pro is the price of Artist, at that point) or get AI via hardware bundle and upgrade from that to Pro. Cubase is almost always lower than MSRP if you buy from Resellers like Best Service.

That's ignoring the fact that he's spinning... Bitwig is basically a subscription de facto, due to how the maintenance works. It's like buying a Pro Tools/Media Composer Perpetual License. Once your year of support is out, you're flying blind and you're really better off freezing the rest of your setup's major components (Operating System, etc.) to ensure that you don't run into any issues that force you to pay to fix them. Otherwise, you keep paying the yearly fee to keep Support/Updates coming.

They aren't the only company that does this. Avid, MAGIX, FXHome and others do this, as well. They're only being singled out because the thread is about Bitwig.

[Trensharo]

Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.

You cannot stay current with Cubase sale prices. When a new version ships, you have to pay full price if you want to stay current. Only if you are willing to not get the new version until there is a sale, can you get the sale price.

Bitwig on the other hand, you can always use the sale price and still stay current and get any new upgrade immediately. That is the difference and why I compared them that way.

In any case, I don't care which one is more or less money. Doesn't matter to me cause the difference is minimal. The cost of keeping either up to date is, IMO, well worth the price. Like I said, Bitwig has worked out to about $10 a month which I consider nothing for one of the most central pieces of my music studio. It is an incidental compared to the overall cost of my studio.

Incorrect.

When a sale hits, you buy the key and save it.

When new version release, you activate it and the key will activate the latest version.

Steinberg Cubase Activation Licenses ALWAYS activate the latest released version, not the version released when you bought it.

If you activated a Cubase Pro 8 license today, you'd get Cubase Pro 11.

So, you buy the key when the 40-50% sale hits, and wait to activate it. Problem solved, and money saved.

The Bitwig Support subscription has worked out to about $10 a month, not the cost of the initial purchase... Steinberg has a 40-50% off sale at least once a year for Cubase, and routinely has upgrade/update discount sales. The sales are more aggressive there, so the price is going to be far lower in the long term if you either:

1. Crossgrade to Cubase and then keep up to date on releases
2. Plan things out and buy during a promotional period, and then keep up to date on releases

There are perfectly viable free DAWs that one can use in the interim, while waiting to pounce on those promotions.

In any case, the price isn't even what was being discussed, it was the subscription'esque business model that Bitwig has. The tiny support window is a bigger issue than any disparity in pricing, assuming you aren't just doing this for a hobby while burning money on the software (not making any money with it).

[pdxindy]

Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.

You cannot stay current with Cubase sale prices. When a new version ships, you have to pay full price if you want to stay current. Only if you are willing to not get the new version until there is a sale, can you get the sale price.

Bitwig on the other hand, you can always use the sale price and still stay current and get any new upgrade immediately. That is the difference and why I compared them that way.

In any case, I don't care which one is more or less money. Doesn't matter to me cause the difference is minimal. The cost of keeping either up to date is, IMO, well worth the price. Like I said, Bitwig has worked out to about $10 a month which I consider nothing for one of the most central pieces of my music studio. It is an incidental compared to the overall cost of my studio.

Incorrect.

When a sale hits, you buy the key and save it.

When new version release, you activate it and the key will activate the latest version.

Steinberg Cubase Activation Licenses ALWAYS activate the latest released version, not the version released when you bought it.

If you activated a Cubase Pro 8 license today, you'd get Cubase Pro 11.

So, you buy the key when the 40-50% sale hits, and wait to activate it. Problem solved, and money saved.

Interesting... good to know, not that I am ever going to switch to Cubase, but good tip to pass on to others.

[Trensharo]

Kinda silly comparing Cubase updates at full price with Bitwig update plan at sale price. Make it fair and use both at sale price or both at full price. In any case will Cubase be cheaper to stay current at all times.

You cannot stay current with Cubase sale prices. When a new version ships, you have to pay full price if you want to stay current. Only if you are willing to not get the new version until there is a sale, can you get the sale price.

Bitwig on the other hand, you can always use the sale price and still stay current and get any new upgrade immediately. That is the difference and why I compared them that way.

In any case, I don't care which one is more or less money. Doesn't matter to me cause the difference is minimal. The cost of keeping either up to date is, IMO, well worth the price. Like I said, Bitwig has worked out to about $10 a month which I consider nothing for one of the most central pieces of my music studio. It is an incidental compared to the overall cost of my studio.

Incorrect.

When a sale hits, you buy the key and save it.

When new version release, you activate it and the key will activate the latest version.

Steinberg Cubase Activation Licenses ALWAYS activate the latest released version, not the version released when you bought it.

If you activated a Cubase Pro 8 license today, you'd get Cubase Pro 11.

So, you buy the key when the 40-50% sale hits, and wait to activate it. Problem solved, and money saved.

Interesting... good to know, not that I am ever going to switch to Cubase, but good tip to pass on to others.

Most people picking Bitwig are doing so because Ableton Live is overpriced - particularly if they don't use it for live performance (as much of the price is a tax on that market, where Live is dominant).

So, I don't expect them to choose Cubase. I used Cubase as an example because it has a predictable yearly release schedule for paid updates.

[pdxindy]

Most people picking Bitwig are doing so because Ableton Live is overpriced - particularly if they don't use it for live performance (as much of the price is a tax on that market, where Live is dominant).

So, I don't expect them to choose Cubase. I used Cubase as an example because it has a predictable yearly release schedule for paid updates.

I hardly think about price when it comes to DAW's as any of them are insignificant in the long run.

My Waldorf Quantum costs more than 30 years of keeping Bitwig current