Mastering. fx

[dramsenik]

What difference does it make?
Genuine question, not sarcasm.

Question of preference. But you have more power to edit a stereo track with intensive CPU plugins. It's also easier to edit the fade in/out, cut the song, etc.
You can load all your finished stereo track and compare how they sound between them, check the levels, choose the order of them to burn a CD, etc.

well an overall better view of your (almost finished)product.

[audiobot202]

Editing externally gives you more processing power as already mentioned. You often get an environment which is far better suited to the task rather than plonking everything down on the master bus. It all depends on what kind of music you are making as well. Some mixes requires more compression than others. Some people just prefer it.
I never put anything on the master bus usually, instead preferring to render a good mix with good levels. I try to tame all of the tracks well before the final mixdown with an external editor anyway.
After that, it's cutting out sub bass rumble below 28hz to clear the mix a bit and make sure the amp doesn't overwork itself and then into something lke Ozone on pretty gentle settings to polish it up.
If I find I have to do too much to it, then the mixdown obviosuly isn't right and I have to go back into the sequencer anyway and re adjust things.

[Sicklecell666]

So you never use the mastering inserts in Orion?
How about the master eq?

I didn't say I don't use the sends & bus inserts I said I don't use the MASTER inserts, ie, I don't strap ANY fx across a mix anymore. I used to do that & began wondering why all my stuff sounded so f**king shitty all the time & since I quit doing that my stuff has sounded WAY fuller..

Now using Orion's sends & buses in the Master section is a different story altogether. That's where I would elect to use say a tempo sync'd delay, compression, etc and apply to whatever by using the send knobs on each instrument's mixer strip.

About the only thing I would place in the Master insert would be something like TL maximizer, but I don't even do that anymore as I would favor multi-band EQ/compression for that duty post render.

And the main reason I don't do any serious mixing in Orion is simply because I can't trust the fader meters & often get distorted output even at 32bit float & then that's only if f**king Orion doesn't f**king crash on me like it just did after not using it for months & trying to give it another chance but f**k that and yes I'm raging pissed at Orion again so f**k it back to Audition and Reaktor standalone goddamn motherfucking bullshit..

*air*

Hmm..anymore questions, Mick?

[multree]

well Mick what Sascha was saying... (wild guess follows) is that you "should" (like in can if you like to - and it propably is better) MIX without any effects on the MASTER INSERT.... but when you're mix sounds good and all... you can put them in / or export the wavfile and do the processing afterwards if your CPU is tooooo stressed....

cheers,
mullybully

[multree]

btw my approach nowadays is like that..... mix with a very transparent limiter at the end (just to prevent my output from crashing) then remove the limiter (so that the master chain is free) [hit find master volume based on the loudest sample of the whole edit - in Tracktion] and export it as 32bit Wav file (btw since my MBox only does 48 I'm back at 44,1 to avoid math errors)

then I usually just push it thru T-RackS for webmastering....

when finishing the record... I line all tracks (all 32bit 44,1) up in Tracktion and aplly mastering at free will (so that everything sounds good - has the same precieved volume - etc.... )

[ouroboros]

i rather meant:

I would recommend to mix completely WITHOUT FX on the master because that will force you to get the individual signal's levels right. With, say, a limiter on the master you won't detect the nasty peaks of your kick (just as an example) but just wonder why the mix is pumping funnily instead.
Bottomline: Work and mix without master FX!

When you decide that your mix is 'ready' I would recommend to bounce it all down for the following reason:

- freeing up cpu

- uncluttering your 'workspace'

- making it easier to do things like applying master fades, bringing in other (mastered) tracks for comparison, etc.

But imo it's not neccessary to use an audio-editor for it. Currently I do all my mastering with Tracktion.

great reasons!
I do all my mastering in FL, after I have done these steps mentioned. Sequence and mix to taste w/nothing on the master--> bounce individual tracks down, reimport generally 1-6 tracks instead of 15 individual channels-->master if more needs to be done w/ limiting, reverb, compression, levels, etc. (except the fades, which I generally automate from the beginning and like to hear how they sound pre-mastering).

It forces me to mix the different tracks together more instead of using fx to do so, and the result, for me, is a cleaner, more distinct overall mix. So basically I'm just repeating Sascha and jens, but it's what I learned here at kvr and it has helped me tremendously esp. with limited cpu.

[Glassback]

Hmm..anymore questions, Mick?

um, yes...



I don't understand how you're talking about 2 masters.

In Orion, there's only one master - the channel on the far right of the master console.
This is where I attach my compressors and stuff to. Always have.

You talk of not strapping anything to the master, but then talk of attaching compressors to the master.
um...


no - seriously - I don't get it.

[vurt]

the whole mixer is the master mixer,you just mean the master output channel

[Sicklecell666]

the whole mixer is the master mixer,you just mean the master output channel

Yes, John's right. The naming convention in Orion's f**ked. I meant I use the Master sends & buses, but do not use the 'Master channel' the strip at the far right.

[jens]

What difference does it make?
Genuine question, not sarcasm.

Mick , Sascha Frank already answered that question:

I would recommend to mix completely WITHOUT FX on the master because that will force you to get the individual signal's levels right. With, say, a limiter on the master you won't detect the nasty peaks of your kick (just as an example) but just wonder why the mix is pumping funnily instead.
Bottomline: Work and mix without master FX!

let explain this a bit more:

When you put fx on the master there must be a reason for it - you want to achieve something. While you are mixing the chances are you can get this effect by changing something about the individual tracks.

E.g. you want more bass - then equalize/compress/whateverize your bass-track(s). When you use a master effect instead you reduce your chance to get the mix right.

What you do on your tracks affects the master-out and vice versa.

Mastering is a different process. Your mix is finished but you want to get something out of your material that you couldn't get out of it during mixdown.

But before you can decide this you need to be able to say: '(for now) the mix is ready - I can't get it any better'. Now of course you could use this mix without bouncing it down and just start to put fx on the master out - but do you have sufficient cpu left?
(good master fx tend to be cpu intensive - b.t.w.: I know your machine )

Isn't everything cluttered up a bit?

Is it easy to get a fade-out on the whole mix if you need it?

finally: if you don't bounce down chances are that you mix the two different processes mixing and mastering up resulting for both in a job less good than the one you could have done otherwise.

Think of mastering while mixing as being similar to polishing a newly varnished car befor the varnish has dried.

[2windy]

My tracks of late have been running at 65-80% on a P4 + 1gb DDR and this doesn't give me room to slap QFX Mastering Toolkit on top. I have been mixing, inserting FX on master, streaming without playing (as I can't!), listening to the WAV, going back and making small adjustment then streaming again without playing, etc....

This takes a shit load of time and patience and never really gets perfect results. I always settle for something that in close enough. No more!!!!

If I master in Orion is there any need to Normalize and Hard Limit in Cool Edit?

Thanks guys you have opened my eyes to a much easier way of working.

[Sicklecell666]

If I master in Orion is there any need to Normalize and Hard Limit in Cool Edit?

Not really if you have the levels set properly which is a bitch in Orion, imo, but if you export at a higher level than 44.1 you'll need to dither in order to burn to disk.

I just see no reason to cram 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag, myself..

[pHz]

Bearing that in mind, Rob, what reverb do you use/reccomend, to use on the master out?

currently in my reverb folder ...

freeverbtoo (freeware) - quick n dirty but i like it
glaceverb (freeware) - for special effects / weirdness
psp springverb (magazine-ware) - obviously specialised use
R2 (commercial) - my bread-n-butter reverb
SIR (freeware) - because sometimes you just need to use a convolution reverb

slainte rob

[vurt]

quick n dirty but i like it



im tellin zoe!

[Kriminal]

Thought I had this sussed but further reading on here has changed my opinion. I have one question.

As I now plan to master outside of my host - CubaseSX - then is there any need to have any effects at all on the master buss?

I figure I could tweak indivudual channels as I mix, then just save the 2track file without any master fx, finally, tweaking/mastering and dithering down to 16/44, in something like ozone?

Or have i missed a trick?

I never use any compression or other 'mastering FX full stop in ym mix. I render it all to stereo and master in Soundforge, its much easier for me anyway, and the results sound much much better. I dont even use compressors on drums or bass etc in the mix...i trust my ears, and my methos sounds ok.

some ppl will tell you that compression on all channels is a must, but i personally think thats a left over habit from hardware studio days. Technology has changed a lot since then.

Im no expert, so take it all with a pinch of whatever, but in the end, its your ears that will be the judge (i also dont use the stuff like Ozone and VW, dont like those 'all in one' plugs, i prefer more controll over every step of the process. Again, just a personal thing.