Reason 3.0 demo impressions

[kingtubby]

I'm afraid I've had to give up on Reason. I've been a user pretty much since day 1 but I'm selling now.
I've always found the sound to be a bit synthetic and plasticky, if that makes sense, but have been holding out in the hope that they'd improve things. I wish Pheads would have concentrated on improving the sound of the instruments rather than giving us something that seems to be an admission of failure ie - Combinator - Sure, I can see it's uses; but it seems to me that they are saying 'OK, Subtractor and FX, etc aren't that great on their own but look! you can chuck a bunch of them together and now they sound cool!'
It's a shame cos' I like the way Reason works but I just can't get past the underwhelming sound quality

[waveriderarts]

people load open up a blank rack, open a subtractor

Yeah it what I have done myself, I like syths with good filters, I did not like the effects either, so why build from that? If you like modular Buzz is so much better to my ears, you should listen to some of those Buzz filters... amazing. And tons of great fx, with modular routing more flexible than Reason.


But I know people that create amazing music with Reason.

[waveriderarts]

It's a shame cos' I like the way Reason works but I just can't get past the underwhelming sound quality

Listen to Bexarametric on AcidPlanet.com, he uses Reason AND sound amazing.


Reason is not my cup of tea, but some people can make it sound incredible, as anything with 16 bit sampling I guess...

[John Vulich]

So many people are going on and on about how the Combinator will facilitate the creation of amazing all new sounds.

It will

This is total Nonesense. What can you do, soundwise, with the Combinator that can't be done right now with Reason 2.5?

All it seems to do is allow you to organize sound modules more effectively and have extra modulation control over parameters that don't have CV inputs.

for precisely that reason

So the Combinator provides more convenient control over parameters and perhaps greater control for live playing/tweaking. I still maintain that it will not add to the creation of new sound possibilities with Reason devices. Even if the Combinator can aid in modulating parameters that don't have CV input these parameters are still automatable through the sequencer's automation tracks in 2.5. Granted it's not as convenient doing it that way but the sound potential is still exactly the same.

[John Vulich]

So many people are going on and on about how the Combinator will facilitate the creation of amazing all new sounds. I just don't get their logic. I can only assume that these folks are "preset whores" that don't do any of their own programming. All it seems to do is allow you to organize sound modules more effectively and have extra modulation control over parameters that don't have CV inputs. But it's still the same sounds.

IMHO, if you are using reason to its potential, it is almost impossible to be a preset whore. I mean, you can take a factory preset in any synth and run it through several different routings that nobody else has done and create a sound that nobody else has.

I say it all the time...its all about the routing.

What are you going on about? Your response does not address any of the statements in my post regarding what I see as some misperceptions regarding the Combinators ability to create "new" sounds.

[John Vulich]

Wow, what a great idea! What features should be included?

• Integrate files with Reason projects. That's one thing people hate about ReWire, even when it works well ie. having to open two projects and hoping everything works. Make it so you open only one file.

• Allow tempo changes to be automated.
* Spline-based automation for Reason tracks.
• Master mixer that allows you to assign tracks to any Reason mixer track, no matter where the submixer the fader is originally assigned is located.
• Lots of cool stuff I don't have time to dream up right now. My toddler is playing with my feet and I have to make him stop. Bye!

Funny, you just described every other Sequencer/Audio/Host/DAW on the planet.

Not really, the key item I mentioned was allowing Reason projects to be integrated, so you don't need to keep track of two sets of files. And if it had the express purpose of only adding audio capabilities to Reason, it would likely be much more streamlined and efficient. There wouldn't be any question of it's ReWire integration, because it could be seamless. You could use WAVs from Refills in an audio environment. There seems to be lots of stuff Props could do that no one else could regarding seamless integration. I personally would love this for my laptop, since it would likely be more efficient than anything else I own.

Anyway, just a thought. Audio is the biggest hole to fill regarding Reason.

I think you misunderstood my response. I was making a sarcastic remark that was meant to point out that reason is probably the only Audio app of it's kind to not offer audio tracks.

[John Vulich]

And in top of this, all that from Combinator hype i can do in 2.5 but with more pain in automation.

I'm not gonna debate taste in synths or preferences in workflow, this is all too silly. However, I'll gladly help weed out lies and bullshit. You can NOT do everything in 2.5 that the combinator lets you do. You can't. Nope. That's wrong. You can do things with the Combinator that was previously impossible.

Performance-wise yes. Sound-wise no. If you believe otherwise lets hear what you think the potential sound making differences are with the Combinator.

[drez]

So many people are going on and on about how the Combinator will facilitate the creation of amazing all new sounds. I just don't get their logic. I can only assume that these folks are "preset whores" that don't do any of their own programming. All it seems to do is allow you to organize sound modules more effectively and have extra modulation control over parameters that don't have CV inputs. But it's still the same sounds.

IMHO, if you are using reason to its potential, it is almost impossible to be a preset whore. I mean, you can take a factory preset in any synth and run it through several different routings that nobody else has done and create a sound that nobody else has.

I say it all the time...its all about the routing.

What are you going on about? Your response does not address any of the statements in my post regarding what I see as some misperceptions regarding the Combinators ability to create "new" sounds.

John, I'm just saying that you don't have to create tons of different presets to get different sound results from the same patches.

Take a look at the building blocks of almost every synth. Osc, LFO, Env, Filter, ADSR. If you want to get down to it, there ain't that many different ways the cat is skinned. Its all a matter of how the basic blocks are put together, what order, what modulates what, and so on. You can take a preset that does pretty much nothing and route it through different devices and get a completely different sound than somebody else does with that same preset.

The combinator gives us the ability to take these same presets and "combine" them. Take a bell from a subtractor and layer it with a String Pad from a Malstrom, combined with a drone sample from the NN-XT, etc. Now you can take one controller knob and control the Grain Shift on the Mal with the Filter on the Subtractor and the Reso and scale on the Scream4 you have the Drone Running through and at the same time changing the stereo image of the entire mix while shifting the crossover point of the stereo imaging frequency. One knob. Does this sound like a complex example? Well, maybe...but its the combinator patch I'm working on right now.

Now...Could you do this with the Seqencer? Yes. WOULD you have? No freakin way. Why? Too freakin tedious! What if you wanted to change 4 measures of automation on one of those? Then you have to go in and change the automation on every single track because the "effect" you have created by syncing the changes on those paramters will be out of whack if you don't! Now with the combinator, I just change the automation for that single knob. Waaaay more simple.

Plus, you can't change all of those things in the sequencer live like you can with a combinator and a controller. I can get all of those changes done by tweaking the knobs on my Oxygen 8 instead of drawing stuff with the no spline automation

With the combinator, I can concentrate on making the combined "patch" musical instead of sequencing. I can just play and keep the creativity flowing. When I am working on a combinator patch I just start putting different parameters in the controller matrix on different modules and see what interesting things I can come up with. You just can't do that efficiently in the sequencer and you SURE can't do it on the fly.

[John Vulich]

drez... I don't disagree with your statements regarding the value of the Combinator. What I am questioning is the impression that some Reason users have (or or trying to give) that the Combinator will somehow be capable of creating all new sounds that connot be created with 2.5. I maintain that this isn't the case. Certainly the Combinator makes it more practical, convenient and playable but it's only adding a better control interface to the already existing sound generating devices.

[Amberience]

It seems to me that unless something doesn't have mathematical functions, nice clean anti-aliased lines, and small icons to represent parts of a whole, then something around here can't be labelled modular.

The whole IDEA behind Reason is one of a modular ENVIRONMENT to work in!!

Everyone looks at Reason as if it is a Cubase or Logic wannabe, wow, it has a sequencer, it must be trying to compete!

Nay, thats a bollock opinion. Reason is a modular rack to work with, and with ALL modular software you have to work to get a good or interesting sound.

All I've read in this thread has been smoke from people's asses because they completely missed the point.

[John Vulich]

It seems to me that unless something doesn't have mathematical functions, nice clean anti-aliased lines, and small icons to represent parts of a whole, then something around here can't be labelled modular.

The whole IDEA behind Reason is one of a modular ENVIRONMENT to work in!!

Everyone looks at Reason as if it is a Cubase or Logic wannabe, wow, it has a sequencer, it must be trying to compete!

Nay, thats a bollock opinion. Reason is a modular rack to work with, and with ALL modular software you have to work to get a good or interesting sound.

All I've read in this thread has been smoke from people's asses because they completely missed the point.

I don't think anyone has implied that Reason is a "Cubase or Logic wannabe". I think that for the most part some folks would like to see certian features added that would aid them in the creation of their music and hopefully make Reason a better product.

What's so wrong about discussing features that can potentially increase the usefulness of a product? Isn't that one of the points in having a public forum like this?

IMO, you seem to be the one "missing the point".

[Amberience]

It seems to me that unless something doesn't have mathematical functions, nice clean anti-aliased lines, and small icons to represent parts of a whole, then something around here can't be labelled modular.

The whole IDEA behind Reason is one of a modular ENVIRONMENT to work in!!

Everyone looks at Reason as if it is a Cubase or Logic wannabe, wow, it has a sequencer, it must be trying to compete!

Nay, thats a bollock opinion. Reason is a modular rack to work with, and with ALL modular software you have to work to get a good or interesting sound.

All I've read in this thread has been smoke from people's asses because they completely missed the point.

I don't think anyone has implied that Reason is a "Cubase or Logic wannabe". I think that for the most part some folks would like to see certian features added that would aid them in the creation of their music and hopefully make Reason a better product.

What's so wrong about discussing features that can potentially increase the usefulness of a product? Isn't that one of the points in having a public forum like this?

IMO, you seem to be the one "missing the point".

In your opinion... wait wait wait... why don't you read this first...

waveriderarts said:

I wish Pheads would have concentrated on improving the sound of the instruments rather than giving us something that seems to be an admission of failure ie - Combinator - Sure, I can see it's uses; but it seems to me that they are saying 'OK, Subtractor and FX, etc aren't that great on their own but look! you can chuck a bunch of them together and now they sound cool!'

....

Do you agree with me now?

The Combinator is most definitely NOT an admission of failure, this guy just doesn't know how to use his software. My post wasn't even aimed at you John.

[Amberience]

drez... I don't disagree with your statements regarding the value of the Combinator. What I am questioning is the impression that some Reason users have (or or trying to give) that the Combinator will somehow be capable of creating all new sounds that connot be created with 2.5. I maintain that this isn't the case.

Oh, and I sort of disagree with you here. Follow my logic.

Your tools enable you to create sound. One tool has newer features than an older version. These newer features directly affect the sound. The resultant sound CAN be one that wouldn't be possible with the old tool.

What features then? Well how about the ability to assign ONE knob to multiple parameters on different synths and effects, and then set limits for them as to how much they effect the parameter.

That in itself provides the ability to create new sounds that would be nearly impossible in R2.5.

The fact that the sequencer now has multitrack recording means that more sounds can be discovered easier.

[Jeremy_NSL]

I think the combinator is a necessary addition to reason. But it really doesn't seem enough to base Reason 3 around it - it seems sort of like a support feature rather than a main feature. I think alot more of us would be pumped if we got combinator along with either:
1. 50 new graintables for malstrom
2. Subtractor 2.0 (featurewise something like Albino)
3. A new synth, FM or additive etc.
or all of the above!

THEN there would be some all-new, cool sound-design possibilities. As it stands, the Combinator seems like a feature that should have been in Reason 2.5 rather than headlining 3.0

[FaX]

So many people are going on and on about how the Combinator will facilitate the creation of amazing all new sounds.

It will

This is total Nonesense. What can you do, soundwise, with the Combinator that can't be done right now with Reason 2.5?

Ok prime example:


1.Have 2 Maelstrom's with waveshapers set too tempo sync - patch these in the combinator so that each waveshaper controls the pattern assignment parameter of each Redrum unit - ie: one could scan bank A (1-10) the 4th could scan all with min modulation being 1 and Max 40) etc etc alllowing the Shapers to scn the redrum pattern banks and trigger them in any realtime order you require with full input quanitise/sync and no glitching.

2.Disable midi input to the two Maeltsroms in the Combinator .

3.Set up 4 custom Redrums with sepreate kits and banks of totally different patterns in each .

4. Make sure patterns are of various lengths and some are say double time 1/32 / standard 16th's / and half time to master tempo ie : 1/8 gtid resolution.]

5.Assign a Mini Mixer with the Maelstroms filters as send and returns and assign this control too Combi knob 1. - acts as a realtime drum filter.

6.Assign Knob 2 and Knob 3 of Combi patch to Maelstrom Waveshaper type with full range setting.

7.Set Combi knob 4 too filter type.

8.Have combi patterns 1-4 switch to predefined tempo sync values for all Waveshapers in the Maelstrom.

9.Create an NNXT String synth patch upper keyboard registers and program splits with mod wheel controlling filter cutoff.

10.Add a Subtractor bass patch with a delay unit fed into the MClass compressor and eq patched back into the mini mixer have lfo and velocity modulate cut off and pitch bend modulate FM anmount.

Save as Combi patch - skin to taste.

Know hit run pattern devices play your bassline in one hand the strings in the other and have some one else jam like a mother fukker on a seperate controller dedicated to the combi patch.

Sounds an awful lot like something Reaktor would churn out trust me .

Oh and did I mention it gets recorded / automation and all to one MIDI track.

Now I'd like to see you pull that off in 2.5.

Lastly several people here obviously have not even given 3.0 a go .

The sound quality is uniformly improved and anyone saying other wise is blowing smoke out there asshole - it sounds 100% better than 2.5.

Secondly the combinator isn't just a fancy layering device- it's a bit like Reaktor lite for Reason.

You don't just get layering/keysplits/and the usual CV/GATE/SPIDER options you get a fully implemented mod matrix with routing options that are impossible to have in 2.5 .

For example you can use multiple matrix devices as wavesequencers and scan each one via a knob and have each one in turn scan the waveforms in a bank of Subtractors/Maelstroms or velocity layers in a Combi using NNXT's for vector style wavesequencing .

Knock it all you wan't it's just made 2/3rds of my VSTi environment obsolete and it easily sounds as good as any of them now.