I hear some talk about how you should use fourths and fifths because they promote an "open" sound. I can't seem to find this when I use them.
In other words, can somebody give me an example of stuff they've done with many fouths and fifths?
Much obliged
Pannewb
Fourths and Fifths vs. others?
-
- addled muppet weed
- 111315 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
i use an 8th usually gives me an open sound.
-
- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
OK, when you construct a simple chord, it consists of a note, the note a third above it, and the note a fifth above it, right?
The thing is, that depending on genre, instrumentation and whatnot, playing complete chords such as this can take up too much sonic space. This is especially true when guitars are involved, as a full, six voice guitar chord has a span of two octaves.
Leaving out the third can free up some of this space. But for that matter, so can leaving out the fifth.
The thing is, that depending on genre, instrumentation and whatnot, playing complete chords such as this can take up too much sonic space. This is especially true when guitars are involved, as a full, six voice guitar chord has a span of two octaves.
Leaving out the third can free up some of this space. But for that matter, so can leaving out the fifth.
-
- KVRAF
- 3508 posts since 27 Dec, 2002 from North East England
Depends what you mean by open really. I tend to think emotionally/tonally open rather than sonically open. 4ths and 5ths don't really impart any distinctive tonal flavour (compared to flattened 7ths which are 'jazzy', flattened 5ths which are 'scary', etc).
-
- Boss Lovin' DR
- 14312 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
Ahh, Asus4, jumpers for goalposts, love will tear us apart, Ian Curtis swinging slowly in the wind. Marvellous.
Stay below 9 when it comes to chords; don't follow the path of jaath.
Stay below 9 when it comes to chords; don't follow the path of jaath.
-
- Boss Lovin' DR
- 14312 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
Did you just call me a beard stroker?cron wrote: (compared to flattened 7ths which are 'jazzy'
-
- KVRAF
- 3508 posts since 27 Dec, 2002 from North East England
It's flattened, so it doesn't count if we're talking rawk. 
-
- KVRAF
- 2285 posts since 20 Dec, 2002 from The Benighted States of Trumpistan
Howdy. Actually, it's parallel fourths and fifths -- several in a row. Listen to some Black Sabbath ("Iron Man," et al.) or Gregorian chant for some truly fine examples. And a fourth is just an inverted fifth, of course.
Uh-oh, I feel a lecture coming on...
In Classical music (Renaissance, actually), this sound was considered old-fashioned and clumsy, and eventually became forbidden. So were covered fifths. And octaves. Except in certain outer/inner combinations. And fauxbourdon (parallel 6/4 chords). And horn parts. And this drives composition students f*cking nuts.
But basically, parallel fifths were forbidden. Way bad karma. Uncouth. Grody to the max, even.
Partly, this is because newer, more harmonious means of tempering thirds were developed. Medieval theorists tuned the third to -- ready for this? -- the fifth of the fifth of the fifth of the fifth is the third of the first: c-g-d-a-e, so c-e. Going by overtones, a fifth is the ratio of 3:2, so this is actually... err, not nice. The natural major third is actually a 4:3, somewhat flatter than our equal-tempered major third.
Furthermore, this sound really was literally old-fashioned. Medieval music (actually, Gregorian chant, which is is all we have left of pre-Renaissance European music) was simple: just one melody, doubled exactly at an octave or fifth. No voice independence at all! And not only was the "harmony" exactly parallel to the melody, but it was always at a simple interval clearly related to the fundamental. But hey, with the way those Medieval dickweeds tuned notes, octaves and fifths were literally the only harmonious intervals.
Then a few hundred years later some dudes discovered that parallel fifths sound pretty bitchin' on a distorted guitar. And a generation later, their prog-rocking metaphorical descendants rediscovered classical harmony.
Same cycle, same hair length, but better drugs and more sex.
("Dude, you hear the latest Mozart album? It's wicked sweeeeeet!")
Err, we now return you to your regularly-scheduled cultural misunderstandings and subsequent flames, irregularly punctuated by thoughtful reviews of technology, hosted here on kvr.
Uh-oh, I feel a lecture coming on...
In Classical music (Renaissance, actually), this sound was considered old-fashioned and clumsy, and eventually became forbidden. So were covered fifths. And octaves. Except in certain outer/inner combinations. And fauxbourdon (parallel 6/4 chords). And horn parts. And this drives composition students f*cking nuts.
But basically, parallel fifths were forbidden. Way bad karma. Uncouth. Grody to the max, even.
Partly, this is because newer, more harmonious means of tempering thirds were developed. Medieval theorists tuned the third to -- ready for this? -- the fifth of the fifth of the fifth of the fifth is the third of the first: c-g-d-a-e, so c-e. Going by overtones, a fifth is the ratio of 3:2, so this is actually... err, not nice. The natural major third is actually a 4:3, somewhat flatter than our equal-tempered major third.
Furthermore, this sound really was literally old-fashioned. Medieval music (actually, Gregorian chant, which is is all we have left of pre-Renaissance European music) was simple: just one melody, doubled exactly at an octave or fifth. No voice independence at all! And not only was the "harmony" exactly parallel to the melody, but it was always at a simple interval clearly related to the fundamental. But hey, with the way those Medieval dickweeds tuned notes, octaves and fifths were literally the only harmonious intervals.
Then a few hundred years later some dudes discovered that parallel fifths sound pretty bitchin' on a distorted guitar. And a generation later, their prog-rocking metaphorical descendants rediscovered classical harmony.
Same cycle, same hair length, but better drugs and more sex.
("Dude, you hear the latest Mozart album? It's wicked sweeeeeet!")
Err, we now return you to your regularly-scheduled cultural misunderstandings and subsequent flames, irregularly punctuated by thoughtful reviews of technology, hosted here on kvr.
Last edited by Jafo on Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wait... loot _then_ burn? D'oh!
-
- KVRAF
- 25041 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
imo utter nonsense - rule #1: don't stick to formulas when composing...pannewb wrote:I hear some talk about how you should use fourths and fifths because they promote an "open" sound. I can't seem to find this when I use them.
In other words, can somebody give me an example of stuff they've done with many fouths and fifths?
Much obliged
Pannewb
sure, I use lots of fourths and fifths in my music - as well as seconds, major and minor thirds, etc.
use the notes which feel right for you!
edit: typo
Last edited by jens on Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- KVRAF
- 25041 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
it was... erm... - actually it was my keyboard's fault!Yes, that's how it is!
-
- KVRist
- 192 posts since 24 Feb, 2005 from Lisbon, Portugal
So, where should i begin to learn to compose on my keyboard? I mean, i've developed some skills but i feel a little lost.... if i should study classical theory or begin to practice more thirds and fifhts.... an example, at the moment i'm learning the IIm7 V7 IMaj7 I6 progression in all keys. Is this useful, to learn this in ALL KEYS ?
-
- KVRAF
- 25041 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
it was rather Genesis&Marillion in my case...scuzzphut wrote:ermmmm
most of us learned by playing along to our Roxy Music albums .......
