Are you a composer or a technoid?

[Jbravo]

What's strangest of all is this frequent refrain about melody around here, as though that has ever been the most important thing in music. One fundamental part sure, but not the tip of the phalanx. Looking at what has been done in music, it's impossible for me to say that anything ranks above all else.

Also seems to fail to fully grasp what melody is, and that it is not a particularly difficult concept to come by. I am humming a tone. I am now raising my tone by two cents. I give you melody.

And this idea of valuing communication (read: authorial intent) over technique ignores that large swatches of music over the past 2000+ years were developed as an exercise in the technical (whether it is mastery of a lute or an EQ, same thing ultimately). And what of music that simply communicates technique?

I agree with Stefan, people get all caught up on the strangest things. Maybe focus instead on what music can be, even if it does not involve you in the least, rather than what you desire it to be, and we'd all get along much happier.

Like xoxos says: live n let live, eh ;P

Cheers,
Steve

it's just healthy debate isn't it? nothing wrong with that, it doesn't need to be judgemental. Everyone's free to ignore melody or composition or any other aspect of music, but sometimes you can find it difficult to effectively add all the ingredients which you subjectively think would make the best music, or you may inadvertently overlook some of them. If someone assumed my music was just an exercise in technique then I'd be quite disappointed, but if that's what you aspire to it's fine (edit: I mean that sincerely - it's not meant to sound sarcastic or condescending)

[Warmonger]

I'm not really a composer, but I don't exactly have a lot of gear (nor do I desire to have a lot). So what label should be placed on me?

[shamann]

it's just healthy debate isn't it? nothing wrong with that, it doesn't need to be judgemental. Everyone's free to ignore melody or composition or any other aspect of music, but sometimes you can find it difficult to effectively add all the ingredients which you subjectively think would make the best music, or you may inadvertently overlook some of them. If someone assumed my music was just an exercise in technique then I'd be quite disappointed, but if that's what you aspire to it's fine (edit: I mean that sincerely - it's not meant to sound sarcastic or condescending)

Sort of my point wasn't it? Debate is good, but the judgment comes in the position that melody outranks technique.

[anti-banausic]

I am guilty of not reading the entire thread, but I am an optimist and would like to halve my cakewalk and eat it too!

I think both. Sounds inspire my melodies, but I admit that melodies should hold up on their own.

Pads, soundscapes, are they a result of the sound, or the chordal progression you are using? Or is it both?

I think that I am a bit of a gear slu7, but it is only so that I can get the sounds that I am after for the melodies and harmonies that I hear and hum all the time.

But I will acquiesce and say that it is also a function of the type of music to which I aspire that sound and musical currency go hand in hand, or so I would like to believe.

But this is a great thread, partially due to debate amongst people, but the one in my head is huge, but worthwhile.

Tx.
Cheers.

[brewt]

I had the fortune of having dinner with a friend one evening, who said "Yeah, I was up most of the night - the muse spoke to me all night long......" to which I (smart-alecly) replied "What, she just comes up and talks to you? I have to throttle the bitch just to get a note out of her!"


Which comment do you get more often - "That was so .... so .... so interesting....!" or "Oh Yeah, Baby!" ??


If I haven't confounded at least some-one, I haven't done something right.


Screw the audience - its their problem to figure out what I meant.....


If you don't have your stuff, do you still hear things in your head?


Art is in the artist, not in the medium.


Me: "How do you decide what note to write?"
Phillip Glass: "There's no choice."


.....blah blah blah blah blah........blither.




-bjc

[androidlove]

I've been using synth sounds for inspiration. I'll compose chunks of a tune with synths and drum synths stacked with effects, then go back and change the sounds to "traditional" instruments.

[McLilith]

CAUTION: Long story ahead.

During the early eighties, I "sort of played" keyboard with a couple of friends and we had a quirky, but fun, little trio formed. I had a combo organ and a monosynth (I also had wired the synth to process the organ tones.) One of my friends was a good and solid guitarist, and the other played electric bass pretty well. I never had any keyboard training, but didn't let it stop me from "experimenting". The three of us actually got to the point where we could jam live and produce what sounded like music to anyone's ears. (It was often intentionally goofy and quirky, but it was definitely music.)

We all contributed. The lead guitarist was a college educated music major. He contributed guitar, bass, some make-shift drum work, vocals, even some keyboard parts. The bassist also contributed vocals and a little on drum parts (after all, it was his drum machine!) I contributed my improvised, uneducated, organ and synth parts, which I played totally by ear. I had little technical idea what I was doing, and didn't care too much, as long as I could come up with something that sounded interesting. I also contributed as the recording engineer and archivist of the group. I literally designed and built some of the electronic gear myself. I also contributed a couple attempts at vocals, but only when my "special vocal talents" were really appropriate (translation: I can't sing. )

Fast-forward, to twenty years later. I hadn't played music with my old guitar-payer friend in 20 years. He lives in a different area, and is too distant to visit often. I contacted him over the internet once, and surprised him with a couple digitally-enhanced copies of our old musical experiments. The originals were on cassette tape and sounded fairly poor. These digital versions sounded better than ever! I asked him if he was still into music. He said he hadn't played guitar in ages, and had almost certainly lost most of the skills he once had. Of course, I was impervious to such skill erosion, since I never had any formally taught skills in the first place.

Later, I sent him a copy of Computer Music, with a sequencer program on the cover. Slowly, we started to trade musical ideas over the internet. We wrote a few new pieces of music this way. My friend rushed out and bought Cubase and immersed himself in the whole VST experience. Our little musical experiments were starting to sound light-years ahead of what we had done in the early eighties. We tossed around the idea of forming a song-writing duo--basically reforming the "musical partnership" we had in the early eighties.

One day, he told me about meeting a wealthy fellow in his area, who had an expensive and elaborate home studio. He also had lots of instruments, and he played music for his living. My friend played a CD of our latest compositions, and the fellow wanted to join our band! Yeah, the fellow with all the gear, and a job making music wanted to join our group. My friend turned him down. He said it was just a personal thing he had been doing with a friend over the internet. Besides, he said, the other fellow isn't even a musician!

My heart sank a little when I heard that last line. Here, I had kept the smoldering embers of a tiny dream alive for over 20 years, and had reawakened my old friend to the joys of creating your own music, after nearly 20 years of abstinence on his part. I gave him his new "instrument" and got him started on how to use it. I also helped him create his first tunes in this new medium. He was really having a blast with the new technology, and so was I.

So, I'm not a musician?

Would my friend laugh, if I called myself a composer? Probably.

Yet, the fact remains. I did play some original music, and I did compose some original music. Okay, I never played for a "real" audience, (whatever that is), only a for a few friends. I never had any music "published"--certainly not through a record label or publishing firm. Are those mandatory prerequisites for the title of musician? What about "composer"?

So folks, I'll let you decide what I am.

Musician?

Composer?

Other?


If you're like me, it probably doesn't matter--except when your oldest and best friend doesn't consider you a musician--even though you have probably just helped him create some of the best sounds that he has ever created in his life. For pete's sake, this fellow, by his own admission, couldn't even play guitar anymore. This was his primary instrument, and he hadn't touched one in 20 years. So, he's somehow still a musician, and I never was one?

I think sometimes people use the words musician and composer in a snotty, pretentious manner. The same goes for the word "artist", whether a musical artist, visual artist, or otherwise. Don't misunderstand, there certainly are true artists, composers, musicians, etc. Then, there are also some people who use such words to promote a snobbish, elitist image.




I know I deserve credit for being something--I just don't know what it is yet!




take care,
McLilith

[androidlove]

My heart sank too. That was soooooo wrong.

[M'Snah]

Besides, he said, the other fellow isn't even a musician!

I can feel how that must have hurt!

You could argue that only someone who actually plays an instrument is a musician, but that includes a great many instrument players who 'just' play other peoples compositions, maybe very skillfully, maybe interpreting it in a beautiful way, but who could not write a single song or other piece of music themselves.

Especially in 'our' world (kvr, soft/home studios) we are composers and arrangers and musicians in one person. Creating the melodies, harmonies, structure, but also picking the right sounds and instruments for all the pieces. If we're not musicians, that would mean it's possible to create wonderful/catching/ touching/etc music without musicians?


I recently bought the Puccini CD/DVD sung by Angela Gheorgiu. She's a great wonderful singer (and singing is a type of musician who uses her voice as an instrument). But in 50 years not many people will know/remember her, but the composer Puccini will still be famous. so... who wants to be a musician?

--HansM

[M'Snah]

[...] an assumption that he was saying the two are mutually exclusive. He didn't say that.[...]

Jens and who are mutually exclusive?

[Lunch Money]

Back off, Hans. He's all mine. In all his smug eXT-worshipping glory. You can find your own Jens!

[M'Snah]

Back off, Hans. He's all mine. In all his smug eXT-worshipping glory. You can find your own Jens!

We have a Dutch saying: A good neighbor is better than a far friend... And I live almost next to Jens. . And anyone being enthusiastic about eXT must be a good person. At least *we* don't have to wait 9-10 months for an upgrade . but that's for a different thread.

[Lunch Money]

Upgrades only matter when there are features missing that you need. Besides, I also love eXT.

[McLilith]

You could argue that only someone who actually plays an instrument is a musician, but that includes a great many instrument players who 'just' play other peoples compositions, maybe very skillfully, maybe interpreting it in a beautiful way, but who could not write a single song or other piece of music themselves.

That reminds me of something. I once saw a concert performance of the local orchestra, along with a special guest pianist. I normally don't attend these sorts of concerts, but I had set up a large Rodgers organ for the orchestra to use that one day, and they asked me to stick around and see the show for free. I was interested in seeing how they used the organ, and thought it would be fun, so I said, "sure".

Their guest pianist arrived in a large, black tractor and trailer. It was painted really fancy looking, and had Steinway's logo all over it. This fellow traveled with multiple Steinway concert grands, which Steinway had provided for his use. I can remember him warming up on the piano, and talking to his personal piano tuner, before the show. The piano seemed to need a fair amount of touching up, though it sounded fine to my uneducated ears. He made a few urgent demands of his tuner/assistant, and left for awhile.

While his piano tuner tweaked the piano to perfection, I was across the room installing a large electronic organ, which the local orchestra was eagerly looking forward to using in their performance that day. They were very keen on getting the best acoustic response and adjustments possible for the organ, even though it was just a loaner instrument for that one day. I did everything I could to please them, and they seemed to appreciate the extra effort.

Later, after the show started, I was looking forward to hearing how they were going to use the organ I had setup, and I was looking forward to hearing that prestigious pianist. He had signs sitting on easels, which proclaimed that someone had once declared him to be the "7th Greatest Pianist in the World" (The exact number might have actually been 5 or 8, but you get the point.) This fellow should be pretty darn good on the piano.

Eventually the pianist was in the middle of playing the music he came to play for everyone. I remember thinking, not bad, but I wonder when he'll get to the impressive stuff?

It turns out, he never did get around to doing anything that impressed me much. In fact, his earlier warmup exercises truly sounded much more interesting to me.

This fellow played the most boring piano music, with the most skill, and the least emotion, that I have ever seen!

There's something important to be said about that, but I'll let you decide what it might be.

Oh, the organ? The organ that I spent all day on tweaking to please the fussy orchestra people? That organ?

They only played one single note on that organ! It was the lowest C note on the organ--a 32' pedal note at approximately 16 Hz. They used that single note, albeit a very long single note, to introduce Also Sprach Zarathustra, also known as the theme from 2001 - A Space Odyssey. All that tweaking of the higher notes on the organ, and demoing of all the various voices, was just something they put me through for nothing. They had me tweaking everything and marveled at the sounds the organ could produce -- only to use one damn pedal note, which I could have easily played myself. Hell, my girfriend's dead cat could have held down that pedal note just as easily. (Okay, someone would have to help him onto and off the pedalboard, but you get the point.) It didn't take much skill to hold one pedal note for perhaps 90 seconds, or whatever it was.

Somewhere, there is a lesson to be learned from all this. I think, it's perhaps the knowledge that just because you are recognized as being a musician, it doesn't make you any more special than those "assistants" who help support you, or the "unwashed masses" of fans that somehow manage to adore you, in spite of the fact that you are only human, just as they are.



Take care,
McLilith

[whyterabbyt]

Lunch Money quoth Not that I'm looking for a fight, but I believe Jens is simply saying that technology should be secondary to melody, which IS something you can debate, WR.

If that's what he is saying, then why does was it that he agreed with the statement that someone who merely prioritises the technology is not a composer or a musician, but only a sound designer?

That really doesnt gell with what you're claiming he said.


However, you DID put a bit of words into his mouth when you extended that to an assumption that he was saying the two are mutually exclusive. He didn't say that.

No, I said he was agreeing with a statement that clearly said that there had to be a specific priority, otherwise they were merely sound designers and not composers or musicians. Which is something he agreed with.
The implication of telling someone that they have to do something one specific way or they are not doing it at all does more than imply mutual exclusivity, Greg. And Jens agreed with that statement.
However if you actually go back, you'll notice that I asked jens to confirm if that was what he meant. And explained to him the implications of what he was agreeing with if he didnt understand them. But he ducked the issue.
I didnt assume what he meant, I asked him. Repeatedly, and with specific reference to a statement he had already agreed with in its entirety.

If one cant ask what someone means, or point out to them what their statements imply without getting this 'oh thats a dirty trick' shite around here, then fine, you have all the fun you want telling people they're not composers, musicians, taking the easy way out or whatever. Im sick to death of these kinds of threads and the narrowminded fuckwits who subscribe to them, so let jens have a whale of a time being superior on the grounds that he knows what melody is. Im so f**king tired of dealing with little narrow minded fascists who just want to tell you what you need to do to make music thats acceptable to them.

Vive la f**king mediocrity.