Are you a composer or a technoid?

[jens]

I'm guessing you don't have his latest collaboration CD with Linda Ronstadt... all Tibetan liturgical choonz, except a guest drum solo by Terry Bozzio.

Is this CD an April Fool's joke? That sounds pretty wild.

...except for the part about Terry Bozzio being a drummer. I think he's an excellent drumer.

Did you ever listen to this album:

Bozzio Levin Stevens
Black Light Syndrome

It's very good. Those are three very talented players, and the the music is very impressive, in my opinion. The fine technical skills don't squash the emotional feel of the music on that album. I don't know why the album isn't more widely known.


take care,
McLilith

I highly recommend you to listen to the second UK album 'danger money' - Bozzio replaced Bill Bruford after the first album and while Allan Holdworth is missing on it as well without being replaced at all I admire 'danger money' more than the debute album.
Bozzio's work on it is fantastic!

[seamonkey]

I highly recommend you to listen to the second UK album 'danger money' Bozzio replaced Bill Bruford after the first album and while Allan Holdworth is missing on it as well without being replaced at all I admire 'danger money' more than the debute album.
Bozzio's work on it is fantastic!

Thanks jens, I know what I'm pulling out of my cd rack tonight.

[jens]

[Meffy]

...except for the part about Terry Bozzio being a drummer. I think he's an excellent drumer.

Same here. And truth be told I have a sentimental fondness for the other two... :-)

Did you ever listen to this album:

Bozzio Levin Stevens
Black Light Syndrome

No, but I'll try to keep it in mind... mention it to my mate in case of a gift-picking emergency. Tnx!

[herodotus]

I highly recommend you to listen to the second UK album 'danger money' - Bozzio replaced Bill Bruford after the first album and while Allan Holdworth is missing on it as well without being replaced at all I admire 'danger money' more than the debute album.
Bozzio's work on it is fantastic!

Although I think you are crazy about the two UK albums, I do like Terry Bozzio.

Have you heard Zappas "Live in New York" album?

Bozzios work therein is nothing short of amazing.

[hao nao]

I'm a "tech-poser"

was that not clear before?

[cron]

They aren't mutually exclsive terms. I think it was Stockhausen who said that composition is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Every discipline requires at least some amount of craft.

[TVD]

Do you emphasize on musical composition or pursuing the hottest gears?

Both!

[tranel]

bang on, that.
it does get tiring; but it seems that in many fields it is the people who push the envelope, or change in some way how things are percieved that will of course have to defend those ideas at first against the dearly held assumptions of those who fear or fail to understand change.

I agree that it is good to embrace change and challenge the prevailing perceptions about music, it's important otherwise what we know as music will just be regurgitated (as much of it is today, I think).

But I don't think a focus on melody stands in the way of this change. You can explore new melodies and new harmonies, and still break new ground. So "melodic" and "cutting edge, pushing the envelope etc" are not necessarily diametricallly opposed.

I can assure you that it takes as much creativity to come up with a melody that "sticks", as it does to come up with a really cool soundscape or "ambience". I respect the handicraft that goes into both, but I personally prioritize the former.

[Lunatique]

This isn't the first time we've had similar discussions--these types of discussions are right in the same ball park as the Ambient/soundscape discussions.

Yes, you can be super cool and totally revolutionary and completely against tradition and the establishment. Yes, you are some kind of maverick musical pioneer. Yes, you only need to tweak your knobs and all that academic mumble jumble are for geeky, pretentious classical musicians, and you look down on them because you are way cooler, and your revolutionary thinking is far superior, more enlightened, and you will go on to inspire and move the world with your music. Melody is for the elitist scums. Harmony is for the stuffy boring dorks. You will not lower yourself to their level.

Look, there is no right and wrong. Many of the trained composers also recognize the importance of ambient soundscapes, sound design, and non-melodic/atonal styles, and have embraced them in film scoring, video game scoring, or contemporary orchestral music. They understand that you need both traditional AND contemporary thinking to be competitive in today's musical landscape.

But why hasn't the knob-tweakers realized the reverse? That you need both to be a worthwhile musician. You already have your knobs--and you can tweak them to your heart's content. Why not arm yourself with traditional knowledge and skill too, so you can broaden your musical palette and range?

Time and time again, I've seen the trained composers do experimental works with sound and untraditional structures--breaking away from what they were taught to explore new sonic territories, then combine that with their conventional knowledge/skills. But I really don't see the electronic guys going out and learning the traditional stuff in order to be more well-rounded. Yet, they always accuse the traditional guys for being close-minded and elitists? Talk about irony.

[soulata]

thanks lunatique. i feel the same way (but then I'm a "musically" trained ape and there's a general feeling we shouldn't have an opinion and if we do it's supposed to be wrong from the very start)

this thread has become insane.

calling bach a wanker and all, yey yey yey...


k

[xander]

I highly recommend you to listen to the second UK album 'danger money' - Bozzio replaced Bill Bruford after the first album and while Allan Holdworth is missing on it as well without being replaced at all I admire 'danger money' more than the debute album.
Bozzio's work on it is fantastic!

I certainly agree with Jens, but...

If Jens and I engaged one another in an agreement to disagree, then we would still be in agreement regarding our original agreement. Therefore, regardless of our attempts to disagree, we would actually be attempting to agree, thereby nullifying the original agreement. This could no doubt be construed as a "breach of agreement" and thus subject to further agreements on how to proceed with any further agreements, and there it is.

[xander]

This isn't the first time we've had similar discussions--these types of discussions are right in the same ball park as the Ambient/soundscape discussions.

Yes, you can be super cool and totally revolutionary and completely against tradition and the establishment. Yes, you are some kind of maverick musical pioneer. Yes, you only need to tweak your knobs and all that academic mumble jumble are for geeky, pretentious classical musicians, and you look down on them because you are way cooler, and your revolutionary thinking is far superior, more enlightened, and you will go on to inspire and move the world with your music. Melody is for the elitist scums. Harmony is for the stuffy boring dorks. You will not lower yourself to their level.

Look, there is no right and wrong. Many of the trained composers also recognize the importance of ambient soundscapes, sound design, and non-melodic/atonal styles, and have embraced them in film scoring, video game scoring, or contemporary orchestral music. They understand that you need both traditional AND contemporary thinking to be competitive in today's musical landscape.

But why hasn't the knob-tweakers realized the reverse? That you need both to be a worthwhile musician. You already have your knobs--and you can tweak them to your heart's content. Why not arm yourself with traditional knowledge and skill too, so you can broaden your musical palette and range?

Time and time again, I've seen the trained composers do experimental works with sound and untraditional structures--breaking away from what they were taught to explore new sonic territories, then combine that with their conventional knowledge/skills. But I really don't see the electronic guys going out and learning the traditional stuff in order to be more well-rounded. Yet, they always accuse the traditional guys for being close-minded and elitists? Talk about irony.

Dude --

You are over-intellectualizing on a 'creative art', as academics are often inclined to do.

In painting, the 'Realists' tried the same argument on the 'Cubists' who were adamantly insisting that the 'Surealists' were "phonies" while the 'Dadaists', who based their art on irrationality and negation of the accepted laws of beauty, claimed that all traditional art was crap.

Ultimately -- in history -- we have come to recognize that all of the above were, in the very least, as equal as any other form of art and are all enjoyed these days as 'wonders of form and expression'. Each genre commands millions of dollars for their original works.

It's all about what people enjoy.

Stop being so flaming pedantic -- it's simply creativity in many ways and shapes manifesting itself via human endeavor.

No text-book definition of style, form, composition or 'accepted method' allows one to state that one mode of expression is any more valid than the other.

As soon as you begin to believe that nonsense, you become less an artist and more of what makes one into a 'professional critic' -- and professional critics of any form of art are often the single most non-productive humans that have ever existed.

Cease this useless totally non-productive argument and go write some freakin music -- or muzak -- whatever turns you on ('cause that's what it's all about anyway).

[soulata]

sure

but it seems (from this thread) as if knowledge of music theory works against innovation. Not necessarily I think.

k

[xander]

sure

but it seems (from this thread) as if knowledge of music theory works against innovation. Not necessarily I think.

k

Knowledge of music theory doesn't have to work against innovation -- but too much insistence on a "pre-defined" or "conventional" form or format is mere pedantry -- an ostentatious and inappropriate display of learning in an art form that simply doesn't require it -- that actually works against it.

A good example is some music like vurt's, for instance.

When I listen to some of his music, I hear an absolute wealth of melodies in the harmonics and tonal dissonances that he is somehow able to evoke from his instruments. I like to listen to him and many other electronic artists because these guys are bringing forth certain sonic scapes that can really tweak the imagination. Perhaps it's exactly what we need to bring new life into music these days.

I get heaps of ideas from listening to such work - from melodies to harmonies to rhythms.

But then, you first have to have an 'imagination' before you can hear any of what I am talking about.

And I have to say I really feel kind of sorry for those who can't.