Why are old records sounding bad?

[Stupid American Pig]

I dont think that you can get better sound quality than what was acheived in the mid 1970s with analog gear. Their are some recordings from then that are far crisper, punchier and lifelike than most things today.

I think that alot of 50s and 60s recordings have alot of character to them. One thing that I dont hear enough of these days is the use of natural room reverb. There is nothing better than hearing vocals that sound like they were actually recorded in a huge concert hall. Plate, spring and tape reverbs are also sorely lacking these days...

[ericj23]

oh I realise it's an old argument but to my ears, there is a better bass response from vinyl and CD just sounds quite sterile in comparison...

the sterile bit is almost certainly due to the cd's lack of harmonic distortion - vinyl has lots of it caused by the inertial movements of the needle

and the improved bass almost certainly has more to do with the RAA curve (or whatever it's called)in your phono stage - ie its producing it

sacd and dvd-a all the way - althought in truth the mastering quality makes a huge difference - i have heard some very sterile sacd's

[The Chase]

oh I realise it's an old argument but to my ears, there is a better bass response from vinyl and CD just sounds quite sterile in comparison...

the sterile bit is almost certainly due to the cd's lack of harmonic distortion - vinyl has lots of it caused by the inertial movements of the needle

and the improved bass almost certainly has more to do with the RAA curve (or whatever it's called)in your phono stage - ie its producing it

sacd and dvd-a all the way - althought in truth the mastering quality makes a huge difference - i have heard some very sterile sacd's

My dad collects those. How many are there now? 12?

[CypherOne]

Hmm, not sure I agree on the bass statement Eric, my CD player is very expensive, my turntable is really cheap, both running to the same amp. Bear in mind that I listen to dance music, predominantly on 12" - correct me if I'm wrong but I thought 12" vinyl was introduced to allow a deeper groove and therefore more bass? I generally have a very good hifi set up (just a cheapo turntable) yet those albums that I have on both formats do seem to sound better on vinyl - in this case I mean old Led Zep and Beatles albums (mostly original) so maybe that makes some odds.

I agree about SACD (haven't heard DVD-A yet)

[713 TSB]

Actually, IMO, the best sound was from the 50`s and 60`s with tube gear. And with tube gear I mean tube mics, preamps, amps etc.

The thing with not hearing the room reverb IMO is because of multi tracking technology. Back in the day when they recorded a group live, that was what you got. Even if it was a recording studio, you still got a feeling of the rooms size by its depth and width. So in essence, the room ambience was included. Its also referred to as soundstage in audiophile terms as being a recording that has depth and it feels like you are in the room where the recording was made. There were a few engineers back in the heyday of jazz one of them being Rudy Van Gelder who recorded live cause that was the only way they could do it. Also the musicians did nothing but play and play together so their sound got so tight, they were able to record as if they were playing live which was what they did. Each instrument had its own exact place in the stereo image, so much so in fact, if you do a bit of listening to Van Gelders recordings, you can tell which ones are his by where the instruments are. With the advent of multitracking in the 60`s musicians people played together less and recorded their bits on their own in a sound booth and did takes upon takes to get it just right.

[emdot_ambient]

Another thing that seems to be overlooked in this discussion so far is that mixing styles have changed over the years. Forget the analog/digital gear stuff for a moment, and just listen to how things were mixed. I noticed this while transfering old vinyl recordings to CD.

For example, I took a Brian Eno song from an LP compilation--his only attempt at a single, called The Seven Deadly Finns--copied it into my PC and cleaned it up. The thing that struck me about the recording was how little emphasis was placed on the durms and bass. Most of the recording was focused on the vocals and the guitars.

And it wasn't only that song or that record, I've noticed it in recordings from throughout the 70's in various styles of music. Rhythm and bass were simply not mixed as dominantly as they are now. You don't hear about it much but there are definitely fads/fashions/trends in mixing as in all other things.

[CypherOne]

everything is compressed to bugbery nowadays too. I recall an interesting thread showing waves from about 4 Rush albums over a number of years and it showed how engineers utilise compression a hell of a lot more in recent years.

[emdot_ambient]

everything is compressed to bugbery nowadays too.

Funny you should mention that. I was just looking at some songs from Kraftwerk's Trans-Europe Express in wav files and was surprised how compressed they were. Now, this did come from a CD, though I don't think it was a remastered one (as in digitally remastered from the original multitrack). I was also surprised at how crisp, clear and modern the recording sounded. Either the CD was remastered for more modern tastes (I think I purchased it in the late 80's) or Kraftwerk was forward thinking in more than their use of technology.

[xoxos]

put yourself back in time 40, 50 years, okay..

how long has popular electronic media been around? consider how protracted by the process of event our perspective is..

we don't listen to a recording the same way they did.. we have different expectations. we are contemporary.. we're looking for a competetive frequency response, et c.. 80 years ago, dude's just tryin ta make a recording, eh.. 50 years ago they happy they makin recordings, you can hear all the thnigs you need to hear clearly, it's delightful..

they weren't saturated with it, it hadn't progressed to our 'many considerations.' they were just country.

if you listen, you will hear this.

[Funkybot]

The biggest difference is mixing. Hell you can go in and open up Revolver in Wavelab and compress the hell out of it and slam the levels and it won't sound like a modern "on a major label, huge budget" band. On the other hand if you listen to the Beatles Anthologies where the mixes were actually cleaned up considerably and compare some of those versions to what the album sounds like you'll notice that it does sound a lot more modern and clear without being overly compressed. Let's face it, they couldn't get the same bass levels on vinyl that we can now, and drums were always thrown into the back of the mix, even though most bands playing in a room are constantly competing to be heard over the drummer. I think modern mixing/micing techniques have taken this into account and level relationship wise actually come much closer to what a band in a room sounds like than they ever could/did in the 60s. I'm a huge 60s pop fan, but come on, there are occasions where I can barely make out drum and bass tracks, whereas when I'm playing guitar with my band, I'm constantly turning up my amp to be heard over them.

[Stupid American Pig]

Actually funky- Listen to Savoy Truffle- Its on par with todays over compressed records...

[Sicklecell666]

Why not take an EQ snapshot of one of these older files & apply it to a CD track & see if there's a difference? Use something like Eleveyta's FreqBoy or one of the Firium/Eqium plugs?

[Bunnyboy]

Vinyl should sound better as it does not need to conform to the 20hz - 20khz of CDs, does not have a bitrate, the bass resonance on a 12" will be more prominent, etc.

However, what if the music on said shellac is mastered on a computer?

[cron]

Another thing is producers not really knowing what to do with the stereo field in many early stereo recordings. Bass to the left, drums to the right etc.

[Bunnyboy]

Another thing is producers not really knowing what to do with the stereo field in many early stereo recordings. Bass to the left, drums to the right etc.

Good for sampling