KVR Audio

EtiennedeV · Post by **EtiennedeV** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:19 pm

Hi,
Sorry to bother you all with this topic, but I believe some FL users may be interested.

gol (FL developper) has opened a thread in Looptalk, in which he lists different options to include a future support of Sustain pedal in FL Studio.
I'm worried about the result of it, since most replies are supporting an unproper support of it. If you have a few minutes, please make yourself heard !

Thanks for all,
Best regards,

Etienne

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:07 pm

The results straight in the piano roll is indeed 'unproper' since so far it's the plugin that has always handled hold/sustenuto by itself.

Now from what I've read (online sources):

-hold/sustenuto (and NOT "hold 2") are purely based on note messages, so it should be safe for the host to do it

-the 'proper' way to do it is already doable in FL: by linking a MIDI out channel to the VSTi, so let's not add a redundant feature

Stupid American Pig · Post by **Stupid American Pig** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:59 pm

It is kind of a pain in the arse- and I actually didnt have a sustain pedal until recently. Luckily, I have Sonar 4 and Reason 3 so I dont use FL quite so much anymore. My workflow has changed alot since I have gotten better at guitar and Piano...

EtiennedeV · Post by **EtiennedeV** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:44 pm

Thanks for your comments,
Yes, indeed, using a Midi Out allows the use & recording of Sustain messages, but the data is not easily accessible for edit. For example, if I delete the last 4 bars of a part in the piano roll, all notes are deleted, but not the Sustain messages. So my pattern keeps its original length, instead of sticking to the remaining notes. So, if I only want a 4 bars pattern, I'm stuck with a longer one. Is there a way to edit Sustain messages from the piano roll ?
I would like to be able to cut/copy/paste Sustain messages together with the notes, not as an automation.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:29 pm

..which is the point of having the hold/sustenuto directly affecting recorded notes, instead of appearing as automation, no?

EtiennedeV · Post by **EtiennedeV** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:09 pm

Well... it sort of would make it if sustain was only sustaining notes (and yet it would not be editable separately from notes), but some VSTis or Instruments also react differently to CC64 (sustain + sympathetic resonance for Piano / leslie speed for Hammond organs...).
I am rather happy with FLStudio, and I would just like it to have a basic implementation of a basic Midi spec. I had never suspected such a 'normal' functionality to be a problem. The Midi Out thing does not fully meet my expectations (am I the only one ?).

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:23 pm

So again, you already have that MIDI-compliant implementation. Your problem is that moving a note doesn't move the sustain CC as well, but CC's aren't linked to notes (and if you have a hold message move with a note, it wouldn't apply to other notes anymore?).

Do you know any sequencer that move recorded CC's along with notes?

And, all I can find about hold & sustenuto is that they just hold the note off messages. What you're talking about would rather be the 'hold 2' message, no? Would a device that does more than holding note off messages for hold & sustenuto be really MIDI-compliant?
http://jedi.ks.uiuc.edu/~johns/links/music/midispec.htm

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:00 pm

I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly sure that u can move cc automation data in reason along with the notes - I could be mistaken though - so i'll have to check when I get home from work - unless anyone else can confirm this?

Stupid American Pig · Post by **Stupid American Pig** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:43 pm

diverdee- this is true, you can move automation data with the note data.

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:46 pm

thought so - i don't really sequence in reason anymore - so i wasn't completely sure - i know i've asked for a similair function in tracktion's cc automation - nice for rewire business - but i guess were off topic here - just wanted to answer gol's question. - well back to work.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:02 pm

well in FL's playlist if you move a pattern around you obviously move its automation as well. The question is what happens when you move one note. It wouldn't make sense to move CC's as they don't belong to any specific note.

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:53 pm

yep - in reason you can effectively group a single note - which then ties that note to any attendant cc data - thus you have the option to move the single note & have the cc data move with the note (or two notes etc.) & as for the statement below:

tony tony chopper wrote:It wouldn't make sense to move CC's as they don't belong to any specific note.

It makes perfect sense if you have tied say a filter resonance sweep &/or some other events to that ONE note - & have got it perfect & then realise that u need to move that note somewhere. If you have the option of moving the cc automation WITH the note you are making life a lot easier. So the above statement about this function 'not making sense' is a little myopic , & in effect doesn't really stand up to scrutiny itself (imo).

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:13 pm

but a 'hold on' message is barely tied to ONE note.

How do you link note & CC in reason btw?

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:24 pm

you go into edit mode - put in a few notes & some controller data - then select the note/notes > right click & choose group. the notes & data then have a grey overlay put over them & will move together. It's not perfect & is probably of limited usefulness - but it does save one having to move everything seperately - & of course it is optional. Obviously as you move the data it overwrites the data in the space you are moving it to - but it can be useful nonetheless. It would probably be more useful to have this function in a rewire host - so that one could move notes & cc data for the rewire slave around together, instead of haveing to manually match things up. dunno about sustain & all that in reason - never used it - & maybe the fact that it works like this has something to do with the combination of reasons midi implementation & it's closed system .... dunno.

kode_poet · Post by **kode_poet** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:18 am

I will have to agree with most people here. I'd like sustain messages to make the note longer in the piano roll, instead of making a separate automation message. It can really mess up a sequence if one or two notes are edited. Imagine recording a nice synth piece and then quantizising the notes and have the sustain info all out of timing. It would be horrible. But Imma quiet down, and take it and love it. FLStudio does everything I want it to do one way or another, even my laundry.

Support of Sustain in FLStudio (help)