Any insight in the issue!
Thanks
What advantages do mixers consoles have?
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- KVRist
- 107 posts since 6 Jul, 2003 from ME
Do the mixers consoles have any advantages over softwares mixers. For what reason are they used? I know some people who doesn't have any kind of hardware synths at all and they still want to have mixers consoles
Any insight in the issue!
Thanks
Any insight in the issue!
Thanks
Thorough preparation makes its own luck
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- KVRAF
- 8706 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Not having h/w but having a mixer seems a bit silly to me....but each to their own, I suppose.
I can see the point in having a physical mixer control surface that automates a s/w mixer, but a straight-forward mixer with no h/w can only do one thing...and that's impress the gullible (and themselves).
If you've got some kind of mixer controller - the point in that is that is alot quicker and easier to mix with. You can also do mixing changes on the fly and actually use your mixer a bit like an instrument for the mix. You've got 2 hands and 10 fingers, so you can alter more than one parameter at the same time. For me, I often do alot of music heavy in FX and feedback routings etc - I might want to fade out channels and raise up FX returns in certain parts...but you want to raise the FX according to how they play - they don't necessarily respond uniformly if they're modulated. So you need instant access to faders and send knobs etc.
There are plenty of benefits/disadvantages with mixers if you've got h/w though. Some h/w is still unreproduced or still very expensive in s/w emulations. If you've got a few analogue compressors, for example, it's easier to use a mixer and busses rather than patch them in and out of soundcard outputs as and when you need them. H/w enhancers etc...analogue Eqs. And you might want specific h/w simply because nothing in the s/w world makes that particular sound.
I use SX...and there are many times I still remember longingly my old large desk - I could route/reroute/feedback all over the place easily. Within SX it can be real tedious. Multiple bloody groups just to send groups to groups because of the inability to send them backwards. Can't reroute FX returns to themselves either without creating another 2 groups. I need a huge amount of groups just to route certain channels sources with certain FX combined if I want to compress them together, or enhance them together etc. But with a decent mixer that is a piece of cake with only 8 busses.
And of course the disadvantages are noise (if it's a cheap desk), no immediate recall of older projects (unless you've got a digital mixer with flying faders etc), space (which was the only reason I finally sold my lovely 24channel desk and went all s/w for mixing purposes), and no realistic limits on number of channels etc - which also brings in cost - if you run out of channels on a h/w desk, it's generally because you've bought so much extra h/w - and that cost heaps. Whereas you can double the number of audio channels with s/w at no cost.
Since I got rid of my desk (
) I tend to make music that is just a little more predictable...solely because I can't do that on-the-fly stuff anywhere near as easily. If I have a delay that is highly resonant and feeds back on itself (which is often), with s/w I have to make sure I don't overdo the effect. i.e I set it a bit weaker. With a mixer, if the resonance got too screechy, I could just whip down the feed or the return channel fader - it was all alot more fluid, and I didn't have to worry about settings as much - if something weird happened, and it was musical, I mixed it appropriately on the spot. With s/w I rarely set extreme delays now. Of course the benefit of that is that my mixes are all dependable - I know what they're going to do, and where. Some older mixes worked well, but sometimes they nearly blew speakers 
.
I can see the point in having a physical mixer control surface that automates a s/w mixer, but a straight-forward mixer with no h/w can only do one thing...and that's impress the gullible (and themselves).
If you've got some kind of mixer controller - the point in that is that is alot quicker and easier to mix with. You can also do mixing changes on the fly and actually use your mixer a bit like an instrument for the mix. You've got 2 hands and 10 fingers, so you can alter more than one parameter at the same time. For me, I often do alot of music heavy in FX and feedback routings etc - I might want to fade out channels and raise up FX returns in certain parts...but you want to raise the FX according to how they play - they don't necessarily respond uniformly if they're modulated. So you need instant access to faders and send knobs etc.
There are plenty of benefits/disadvantages with mixers if you've got h/w though. Some h/w is still unreproduced or still very expensive in s/w emulations. If you've got a few analogue compressors, for example, it's easier to use a mixer and busses rather than patch them in and out of soundcard outputs as and when you need them. H/w enhancers etc...analogue Eqs. And you might want specific h/w simply because nothing in the s/w world makes that particular sound.
I use SX...and there are many times I still remember longingly my old large desk - I could route/reroute/feedback all over the place easily. Within SX it can be real tedious. Multiple bloody groups just to send groups to groups because of the inability to send them backwards. Can't reroute FX returns to themselves either without creating another 2 groups. I need a huge amount of groups just to route certain channels sources with certain FX combined if I want to compress them together, or enhance them together etc. But with a decent mixer that is a piece of cake with only 8 busses.
And of course the disadvantages are noise (if it's a cheap desk), no immediate recall of older projects (unless you've got a digital mixer with flying faders etc), space (which was the only reason I finally sold my lovely 24channel desk and went all s/w for mixing purposes), and no realistic limits on number of channels etc - which also brings in cost - if you run out of channels on a h/w desk, it's generally because you've bought so much extra h/w - and that cost heaps. Whereas you can double the number of audio channels with s/w at no cost.
Since I got rid of my desk (
) I tend to make music that is just a little more predictable...solely because I can't do that on-the-fly stuff anywhere near as easily. If I have a delay that is highly resonant and feeds back on itself (which is often), with s/w I have to make sure I don't overdo the effect. i.e I set it a bit weaker. With a mixer, if the resonance got too screechy, I could just whip down the feed or the return channel fader - it was all alot more fluid, and I didn't have to worry about settings as much - if something weird happened, and it was musical, I mixed it appropriately on the spot. With s/w I rarely set extreme delays now. Of course the benefit of that is that my mixes are all dependable - I know what they're going to do, and where. Some older mixes worked well, but sometimes they nearly blew speakers .-
- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
If you're into recording multiple channels at once (such as a band or even only drums) a mixer might still be the most convenient solution, offering dedicated channel settings and proper routing options for monitoring.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 6937 posts since 4 Jun, 2004 from Utrecht, Holland
A hardware mixer does not only have multiple inputs, but also multiple outputs!
A couple of sends & some group busses can be used in many many ways. So I can change what I hear and what I actually record, and keep them seperated.
A couple of sends & some group busses can be used in many many ways. So I can change what I hear and what I actually record, and keep them seperated.
My MusicCalc is temporary offline.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
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- KVRAF
- 1821 posts since 5 Oct, 2003
That has been my experience exactly! It is the one major drawback I find in working soley with digital and no external controllers or mixers.kritikon wrote:Since I got rid of my desk (
Candidly, it has sucked some of the life out of too many my mixes. Where are those wonderful accidents? Those gaffes and slight imperfections that impart a real personality to the music?
My most successful work has resulted from my "playing the board." I find that is where much of the energy of a a great mix comes from.
Like you, I find "mixing by the numbers" to be a bit too, as you say, predictable, and there is (to my ears, at least) an undeniable sameness. Hell, listen to the radio.
Certainly less fun.
"Time makes fools of us all. Our only comfort is that greater shall come after us." Eric Temple Bell
http://thetomorrowfile.bandcamp.com/
http://thetomorrowfile.bandcamp.com/
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- KVRAF
- 3944 posts since 7 May, 2004 from behind his workbench
i´m saving my money for one , too. it just feels better than moving sliders with the mouse 
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
I could not imagine being without a desk, for alot of the reasons already mentioned.
The hands on immediacy of a desk is still faster and more efficient for tracking and mixing, for me anyroad. I dislike mice...nasty, clicky things...we hates them forever.
A good sounding desk with some nice preamps does wonders for your sound going to, and coming from, any digital medium. Again, my personal feeling.
All else being equal, mix summing sounds more appealing to me through a good desk...wider, deeper, fatter in general. More kick, cut and slam.
Flexible, straight forward routing, with a huge number of available options for seriously cool digital/analog integrations.
Disadvantages...a good desk can be big, heavy, and expensive.
The hands on immediacy of a desk is still faster and more efficient for tracking and mixing, for me anyroad. I dislike mice...nasty, clicky things...we hates them forever.
A good sounding desk with some nice preamps does wonders for your sound going to, and coming from, any digital medium. Again, my personal feeling.
All else being equal, mix summing sounds more appealing to me through a good desk...wider, deeper, fatter in general. More kick, cut and slam.
Flexible, straight forward routing, with a huge number of available options for seriously cool digital/analog integrations.
Disadvantages...a good desk can be big, heavy, and expensive.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu
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- KVRian
- 692 posts since 10 Apr, 2004
ok, and with that, what type of desk do you have?kilroy wrote:I could not imagine being without a desk, for alot of the reasons already mentioned.
The hands on immediacy of a desk is still faster and more efficient for tracking and mixing, for me anyroad. I dislike mice...nasty, clicky things...we hates them forever.
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Spaceman Sounds Spaceman Sounds https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=56830
- KVRian
- 580 posts since 3 Feb, 2005
Theres something about a sound getting air, i.e going through some analog device that seems to round off the harsh digital artifacts... just sounds more real to me. I've been mixing without a desk for a year, but have gone back to going through an analog desk.
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- KVRist
- 336 posts since 7 Nov, 2004 from New Zealand
I agree with kilroy... IMHO, when compared to a piece of software, a quality desk will sound better everytime!
Don't get me wrong - I completely rely on software, specifically SX & several plugins, but only because I can't afford the equivalent in hardware!
Having the best of both the hard & software worlds working in tandem would be my ultimate setup.
Don't get me wrong - I completely rely on software, specifically SX & several plugins, but only because I can't afford the equivalent in hardware!
Having the best of both the hard & software worlds working in tandem would be my ultimate setup.
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
I use a *heavily* modified, 32 channel Soundcraft Ghost. All original ICs have been replaced with Burr-Brown ICs. Various other mods and tuning have been performed to suit my specifications. The difference is quite remarkable, quite indeed.Rajah wrote:ok, and with that, what type of desk do you have?kilroy wrote:I could not imagine being without a desk, for alot of the reasons already mentioned.
The hands on immediacy of a desk is still faster and more efficient for tracking and mixing, for me anyroad. I dislike mice...nasty, clicky things...we hates them forever.
All these mods were performed by the good folks at Creation Audio Labs.
www.creationaudiolabs.com
I basically required a small format desk with *very* high quality audio performance. The basic Ghost design is extremely good, and it lends itself well to modding, which is why I chose this particular desk. Well...that and hearing a side by side comparison between a modded Ghost and the original...a very convincing comparison.
I am extremely pleased with the sound of this desk. The mods were not particularily cheap, but very worthwhile when the considerable performance boost is taken into account. 
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu
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- Pick Me Pick me!
- 10248 posts since 12 Mar, 2002 from a state of confusion
wow they're in nashville.. coolkilroy wrote: I use a *heavily* modified, 32 channel Soundcraft Ghost. All original ICs have been replaced with Burr-Brown ICs. Various other mods and tuning have been performed to suit my specifications. The difference is quite remarkable, quite indeed.
All these mods were performed by the good folks at Creation Audio Labs.
www.creationaudiolabs.com
I basically required a small format desk with *very* high quality audio performance. The basic Ghost design is extremely good, and it lends itself well to modding, which is why I chose this particular desk. Well...that and hearing a side by side comparison between a modded Ghost and the original...a very convincing comparison.
.. do you live nearby? shipping must have been pricey.. the ghost is heavy right? 
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
OK mate, here's how we will do this for right now.VitaminD wrote:wow they're in nashville.. coolkilroy wrote: I use a *heavily* modified, 32 channel Soundcraft Ghost. All original ICs have been replaced with Burr-Brown ICs. Various other mods and tuning have been performed to suit my specifications. The difference is quite remarkable, quite indeed.
All these mods were performed by the good folks at Creation Audio Labs.
www.creationaudiolabs.com
I basically required a small format desk with *very* high quality audio performance. The basic Ghost design is extremely good, and it lends itself well to modding, which is why I chose this particular desk. Well...that and hearing a side by side comparison between a modded Ghost and the original...a very convincing comparison.
Do I live in Nashville = No
Shipping must be pricey = Went there, bought the desk, had it taken directly to CAL, mod performed and shipped to my location. Short answer is that done this way the shipping is not much more than what you end up paying for in the original built in cost.
The Ghost is heavy, right? = I can only run with it in my arms for about a mile...then my feet start to get sore, and my back gives out.
Speaking of running...I'm off for a bit of a relaxing marathon.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu
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original flipper original flipper https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8999
- KVRAF
- 2544 posts since 14 Sep, 2003 from Essex
HI
I have had several mixers in the past including a Soundcraft Ghost which cost several thousand pounds and weighed a similar amount!
At one point I was using lots of hardware so it was neccesary to have a hardware mixer as time went by I went software but had multiple sound cards to output my sounds for external mixing - it is hard to beat this kind of set up BUT imo is only usefull to people who are earning a living from music - for a hobbyist it is overkill - for a pro, having a mixer gives you the advantage of being able to utilise the analogue edge a console will give and many paying customers also want or like the idea of seing something tangable.
The other advantage for studios or individuals who record via a ton of mic's or other inputs is that it can be considerably easier to see whats going on - the BIG downer is mobility!
I still use a mini mixer but this is only for foldback purposes - I still like the idea of a small mixer and a multi-output card (my last set-up) for doing mixes on, but you loose total recall - but then again total recall has destroyed (in part) the whole thing of just getting down and recording a tune, hasn't it.
Shit, I could (and so could many others) write a book on this stuff!
Flipper.
I have had several mixers in the past including a Soundcraft Ghost which cost several thousand pounds and weighed a similar amount!
At one point I was using lots of hardware so it was neccesary to have a hardware mixer as time went by I went software but had multiple sound cards to output my sounds for external mixing - it is hard to beat this kind of set up BUT imo is only usefull to people who are earning a living from music - for a hobbyist it is overkill - for a pro, having a mixer gives you the advantage of being able to utilise the analogue edge a console will give and many paying customers also want or like the idea of seing something tangable.
The other advantage for studios or individuals who record via a ton of mic's or other inputs is that it can be considerably easier to see whats going on - the BIG downer is mobility!
I still use a mini mixer but this is only for foldback purposes - I still like the idea of a small mixer and a multi-output card (my last set-up) for doing mixes on, but you loose total recall - but then again total recall has destroyed (in part) the whole thing of just getting down and recording a tune, hasn't it.
Shit, I could (and so could many others) write a book on this stuff!
Flipper.
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- KVRAF
- 8706 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
f**k me! Kilroy = Arnold bleedin' SchwarzenegerThe Ghost is heavy, right? = I can only run with it in my arms for about a mile...then my feet start to get sore, and my back gives out.
I'm real envious...I can't even run a mile empty-handed on amphetamines