Well, I wanted to buy Ozone to master my record(all the good press and the price looks good for mastering software). However, unforseen expenses may force me to make do with the effects I have. I saw the thread about FreqBoy and I may spring for that. The music is basic folk rock. I will be creating the illusion of vocals, acoustic guitar, acoustic bass and live drums in one room. Here's what I have that would be relevant to this:
Comps:
Baxxspander
Blockfish
Dominion
Endorphin
The Kjarhaus Classic suite
The MDA suite
THD
Gates:
Floorfish
Reverbs:
Roommachine
Freeverb, too
OldSkoolVerb
Stereos:
Mda Imager and Stereo
Also the Spitfish de-esser.
I have Sonar3PE so the list includes all their effects too. I'm sure I will use the Sonitus 'verb.
I am most concerned with making the whole mix louder after hearing how thin it sounded on a coffeeshop's stereo. On another stereo and in my car it sounded OK though.
So how would you guys approach final mastering with the effects I have? Can it even be done credibly? This is my first record so I don't know.
Faking Ozone for mastering
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- KVRAF
- 1703 posts since 11 Nov, 2004 from Kansas City, MO
"The Law speaks too softly to be heard amid the din of arms." -- Gaius Marius {Roman consul,soldier}
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- KVRist
- 160 posts since 24 Jan, 2005 from CHICAGO
hehe, im a beginner, but ive used a lot of those plugins, and considering the people that do great work with all free stuff, i dont think you'll have any problem whatsoever, you can get some great sound out of them.
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- Mod-ulator
- 2895 posts since 31 Oct, 2000 from "Where I'm to, There I'll be"
Sonar has a nice Comp and EQ that would / should give you the Loudness you want.
And yes it can be done with what you have ... you are on the right track ... which involves listening to it on different stereos etc.
It is however preferable to have someone else master your own work ... Your own ears get too used to some things and though they sound good to you they may be out of Place overall.
That said though ... if you want to do it yourself i would start with the included Sonar Comp and EQ. It really is all about using your ears and Listening to other tracks in the same Genre to see how they sit with yours.
That said though.. Ozone is a Treat and even has things like eq matching etc.! If you are serious it is worth the investment. I use and Love it!
Paul
And yes it can be done with what you have ... you are on the right track ... which involves listening to it on different stereos etc.
It is however preferable to have someone else master your own work ... Your own ears get too used to some things and though they sound good to you they may be out of Place overall.
That said though ... if you want to do it yourself i would start with the included Sonar Comp and EQ. It really is all about using your ears and Listening to other tracks in the same Genre to see how they sit with yours.
That said though.. Ozone is a Treat and even has things like eq matching etc.! If you are serious it is worth the investment. I use and Love it!
Paul
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- KVRist
- 138 posts since 1 Oct, 2004 from Atlanta, GA
All of the Kjaerhus classic plugins are great to work with. If you want to fork out some cash I highly recommend Voxengo and Kjaerhus...they are about the best you will find that are easily affordable. Also, If you want a do it all type I also recommend iZotope Ozone as mentioned above...this one is a do it all plug that really usable for anything you can toss at it...its worth the investment.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1703 posts since 11 Nov, 2004 from Kansas City, MO
Thanks Paul, that's really encouraging. I understand about feedback from others. I seem to be the only one around who's really into this stuff though. All my friends just tune me out when I start in about it. Just not their thing.manytone wrote:Sonar has a nice Comp and EQ that would / should give you the Loudness you want.
And yes it can be done with what you have ... you are on the right track ... which involves listening to it on different stereos etc.
It is however preferable to have someone else master your own work ... Your own ears get too used to some things and though they sound good to you they may be out of Place overall.
That said though ... if you want to do it yourself i would start with the included Sonar Comp and EQ. It really is all about using your ears and Listening to other tracks in the same Genre to see how they sit with yours.
That said though.. Ozone is a Treat and even has things like eq matching etc.! If you are serious it is worth the investment. I use and Love it!
Paul
Should I care about limiting all that much? That seems to be a big deal. I wish Sonitus made a limiter. The Kjaerhus limiter will do I guess. I suppose I'll set up a new project and line each song in it one after the other on one track(or one track for drums, one for guitar, etc.) and apply EQ, comp, etc., to them using Sonar's automation, then record it. Then I'll record that again with the limiter on it, then dither. sound like a plan?
"The Law speaks too softly to be heard amid the din of arms." -- Gaius Marius {Roman consul,soldier}
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- AcousticHippie
- 4769 posts since 12 Mar, 2003
the sonitus suite alone is everything you need....
honestly with all those tools at your disposal, you can be very lucky and take some time to learn them
honestly with all those tools at your disposal, you can be very lucky and take some time to learn them
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- KVRAF
- 2750 posts since 2 Feb, 2005 from Raincoast of Grayland
For the best spatial illusion try SIR convolution reverb with some good 'room' impulses. It's within your *budget* - Also try ConvoBoy, just slightly over your budget.Moe Shinola wrote:I will be creating the illusion of vocals, acoustic guitar, acoustic bass and live drums in one room.
I can't emphasive this enough, if your goal is to create a 'live' sound, then go easy on all the scary mastering comps / brickwall limiters. Those plugs can make soggy garage-sale bongos sound punchy. But it's so NOT a *live* sound. Live sound is all about rough and raw with lots of dynamic contrasts.
Those mastering plugs are great tools, but make terrible masters. Be careful. They are very seductive bits of DSP. At first. If your target market is crappy background music systems in a noisy Coffee shop, then by all means smack it around in a *maximizer*. And add lots of smiley face EQ too.
And get yourself a decent monitoring system. Or find someone who does. While you can mix on lo-fi systems with a little time and practice, trying to master on one is near pointless.
So no pressure from us here, even tho you only get to make your 1st recording once...Take your time. Listen. Take some time off. Listen again.
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- KVRAF
- 4176 posts since 2 Feb, 2003 from lost in music
as all said you have what is needed,
but I would add , if you need a limiter try the buzmaxi3
I like it a lot, and also the compressors from buzroom are great,
and everything is free
you´ll find links in the effects section.
but I would add , if you need a limiter try the buzmaxi3
I like it a lot, and also the compressors from buzroom are great,
and everything is free
you´ll find links in the effects section.
sound is vibration, vibration is life
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- KVRAF
- 8705 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Yeah...most of what has already been said.
For a live band-in-a-room feel, I'd steer clear of fancy multiband compressors etc. You can probably get quite a bit more impact and raise up the beefiness a fair bit by using any number of the wideband compressors you've already got. A good tip is to chain 2 or even 3 compressors after each other, each one with only mild compression settings on soft-knee. That can often work better and more transparently than using one compressor with heavy settings. It'll give alot more cohesion to the overall sound - which is exactly what you want for that live feel.
And don't use much reverb in the tracking/mixing stages possibly...use a convolution verb with a good impulse of a room/sound stage/hall on the final mix instead.
For a live band-in-a-room feel, I'd steer clear of fancy multiband compressors etc. You can probably get quite a bit more impact and raise up the beefiness a fair bit by using any number of the wideband compressors you've already got. A good tip is to chain 2 or even 3 compressors after each other, each one with only mild compression settings on soft-knee. That can often work better and more transparently than using one compressor with heavy settings. It'll give alot more cohesion to the overall sound - which is exactly what you want for that live feel.
And don't use much reverb in the tracking/mixing stages possibly...use a convolution verb with a good impulse of a room/sound stage/hall on the final mix instead.
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- Mod-ulator
- 2895 posts since 31 Oct, 2000 from "Where I'm to, There I'll be"
Moe
You asked above about the order... and how to do this.
It depends on the track but a general guideline i will give you is to get a decent mixdown of all the Instruments into a stereo wavefile. This should be the mix that you are happy with, without too much compression on or too many noticible FX (Like too much verb etc) .... Basically a Mix that is almost how you want it to sound but perhaps not Quite Polished in terms of Loudness and Overall EQ / Smoothing.
Once you have this Basic Stereo Wavefile of the Track...
Then you can chain up a series of Plugs on that Stereo Mixdowns Master Channel. Try your Comp and an EQ and a Limiter.
Be Carefull with Reverb. Best less than too much.
Try a few things ... Listen again on different systems and Compare to commercial releases in the same Genre. You can always go back to that original 1st Mixdown and process it a different way if you don't like what you did.
Hope this helps ... It is just a guideline and not Hard and fast Rules. Experiment with this procedure though ... Making a Basic Mixdown and then Mastering it in a Chain of your FX.
It generally does not take much ... Don't Overdo ..
Also watch the levels of the final mix in an audio editor. You may need to process and look close at the wav. Soundforge or other is great for this and for the whole Mastering stage. But you can do it all in Sonar too.
Actually look at the wav... you do not want to Flatline it out. Although some so called pros do ... I tend to be sure i have no Hard Flatlines in the Wav.
I basically use the above procedure with Ozone on the Master Mixdown... But Chaining what you have will be a decent substitute.
Good Luck
Paul
You asked above about the order... and how to do this.
It depends on the track but a general guideline i will give you is to get a decent mixdown of all the Instruments into a stereo wavefile. This should be the mix that you are happy with, without too much compression on or too many noticible FX (Like too much verb etc) .... Basically a Mix that is almost how you want it to sound but perhaps not Quite Polished in terms of Loudness and Overall EQ / Smoothing.
Once you have this Basic Stereo Wavefile of the Track...
Then you can chain up a series of Plugs on that Stereo Mixdowns Master Channel. Try your Comp and an EQ and a Limiter.
Be Carefull with Reverb. Best less than too much.
Try a few things ... Listen again on different systems and Compare to commercial releases in the same Genre. You can always go back to that original 1st Mixdown and process it a different way if you don't like what you did.
Hope this helps ... It is just a guideline and not Hard and fast Rules. Experiment with this procedure though ... Making a Basic Mixdown and then Mastering it in a Chain of your FX.
It generally does not take much ... Don't Overdo ..
Also watch the levels of the final mix in an audio editor. You may need to process and look close at the wav. Soundforge or other is great for this and for the whole Mastering stage. But you can do it all in Sonar too.
Actually look at the wav... you do not want to Flatline it out. Although some so called pros do ... I tend to be sure i have no Hard Flatlines in the Wav.
I basically use the above procedure with Ozone on the Master Mixdown... But Chaining what you have will be a decent substitute.
Good Luck
Paul
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TotcProductions TotcProductions https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6202 - KVRAF
- 5156 posts since 5 Mar, 2003 from Franklin, NH
Yeah, manytone is right about the compressor...use the ultrafunk one, set it to one of the "Vintage" settings then tweak it accordingly.manytone wrote:Sonar has a nice Comp and EQ that would / should give you the Loudness you want.
And yes it can be done with what you have ... you are on the right track ... which involves listening to it on different stereos etc.
It is however preferable to have someone else master your own work ... Your own ears get too used to some things and though they sound good to you they may be out of Place overall.
That said though ... if you want to do it yourself i would start with the included Sonar Comp and EQ. It really is all about using your ears and Listening to other tracks in the same Genre to see how they sit with yours.
That said though.. Ozone is a Treat and even has things like eq matching etc.! If you are serious it is worth the investment. I use and Love it!
Paul
I've also got a thread on this forum somewhere that was started by hitman where i gave him a whole big list of EQ frequency ranges for various instruments...might find it useful
peace!
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- Mod-ulator
- 2895 posts since 31 Oct, 2000 from "Where I'm to, There I'll be"
Hey ToTc and all
I made a note of that Tip from you a while ago....
I will repost here as it is fitting......
FROM ToTc:
Ok, umm...guess i'll just start a list of tips for you...
1. This may be an obvious one, but it's still important...Though you might want to mute the other tracks while eqing one to hear exactly what you're doing to it, i find it's better to eq on track while all the others are playing so I have a better idea of how the EQ i'm applying is effecting the individual track's ability to fit into the mix...after all, this is one of the major reasons for EQ in the first place.
2. Unless you are using the EQ to completely shape the sound or fix a certain frequency, try not to make to many drastic changes...for example, if you wanna push up the lower frequencies from lets say, 80 khz and below, only raise the level of that band by a decible or so at a time....setting frequencies to much higher than 6 db will usually only achieve an annoying filtered sound. Another obvious one, i know, but it's still a worthy point to keep in mind.
3. As Nool pointed out, use an analyzer on the track to see exactly what the total frequency range is and the exact changes you are making as you make them. This will also help you judge where to make level changes as you'll be able to see where the problem areas are.
4. Know the "Typical" frequency ranges to concentrate on for the instrument you're working with. for example, here are some general, but typical ranges for a few isntruments:
A. Kick Drum Bottom Depth at 60-80 hz, Slap/Attack
at 2.5khz
B. Snare Drum Fatness around 240 hz, crispness around
5 khz
C. Hi-Hat/Cymbals Clank/Gong sound around 200hz, Shimmer
around 7.5 khz to 12 khz
D. Rack Toms Fullness around 240 hz, Attack around
5khz.
E. Floor Toms Fullness around 80-120 hz, Attack round
5 khz.
F. Bass Guitars Bottom around 60-80 hz, attack/pluck
around 700 - 1000 hz (or 1khz), String
Noise/Pop around 2.5 khz.
G. Electric Guitar Fullness around 240 hz, Bite around
2.5 khz
H. Acoustic Guitar Bottom at 80-120 hz, Body around 240
hz, clarity around 2.5-5 khz.
I. Electric Organ Bottom around 80-120 hz, body around
240hz, presence around 2.5 khz.
J. Piano/Keys Bottom around 80-120 hz, presence
around 2.5-5khz, crisp attack around
10khz. Hi-Q is around 2.5 khz.
K. Horns Fullness around 120-240 hz, Shrill
around 5-7.5 khz.
L. Strings Fullness around 240 hz, Scratchiness
around 7.5-10khz
M. Gen. Percussion Resonance around 200-240hz,
presence/slap around 5khz.
N. Vocals Fullness around 120hz, boom/body
around 200-240 hz, presence around
5 khz, sibilance around 7.5-10khz.
Again, those above are pretty general and typical ranges...and they'll vary by instrument, sometimes greatly, but that'll give you a better idea of where to start focusing on each track.
Hope that helps a bit.
peace! Cool
I made a note of that Tip from you a while ago....
I will repost here as it is fitting......
FROM ToTc:
Ok, umm...guess i'll just start a list of tips for you...
1. This may be an obvious one, but it's still important...Though you might want to mute the other tracks while eqing one to hear exactly what you're doing to it, i find it's better to eq on track while all the others are playing so I have a better idea of how the EQ i'm applying is effecting the individual track's ability to fit into the mix...after all, this is one of the major reasons for EQ in the first place.
2. Unless you are using the EQ to completely shape the sound or fix a certain frequency, try not to make to many drastic changes...for example, if you wanna push up the lower frequencies from lets say, 80 khz and below, only raise the level of that band by a decible or so at a time....setting frequencies to much higher than 6 db will usually only achieve an annoying filtered sound. Another obvious one, i know, but it's still a worthy point to keep in mind.
3. As Nool pointed out, use an analyzer on the track to see exactly what the total frequency range is and the exact changes you are making as you make them. This will also help you judge where to make level changes as you'll be able to see where the problem areas are.
4. Know the "Typical" frequency ranges to concentrate on for the instrument you're working with. for example, here are some general, but typical ranges for a few isntruments:
A. Kick Drum Bottom Depth at 60-80 hz, Slap/Attack
at 2.5khz
B. Snare Drum Fatness around 240 hz, crispness around
5 khz
C. Hi-Hat/Cymbals Clank/Gong sound around 200hz, Shimmer
around 7.5 khz to 12 khz
D. Rack Toms Fullness around 240 hz, Attack around
5khz.
E. Floor Toms Fullness around 80-120 hz, Attack round
5 khz.
F. Bass Guitars Bottom around 60-80 hz, attack/pluck
around 700 - 1000 hz (or 1khz), String
Noise/Pop around 2.5 khz.
G. Electric Guitar Fullness around 240 hz, Bite around
2.5 khz
H. Acoustic Guitar Bottom at 80-120 hz, Body around 240
hz, clarity around 2.5-5 khz.
I. Electric Organ Bottom around 80-120 hz, body around
240hz, presence around 2.5 khz.
J. Piano/Keys Bottom around 80-120 hz, presence
around 2.5-5khz, crisp attack around
10khz. Hi-Q is around 2.5 khz.
K. Horns Fullness around 120-240 hz, Shrill
around 5-7.5 khz.
L. Strings Fullness around 240 hz, Scratchiness
around 7.5-10khz
M. Gen. Percussion Resonance around 200-240hz,
presence/slap around 5khz.
N. Vocals Fullness around 120hz, boom/body
around 200-240 hz, presence around
5 khz, sibilance around 7.5-10khz.
Again, those above are pretty general and typical ranges...and they'll vary by instrument, sometimes greatly, but that'll give you a better idea of where to start focusing on each track.
Hope that helps a bit.
peace! Cool
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1703 posts since 11 Nov, 2004 from Kansas City, MO
What great replies I'm getting! Okay, Manytone: an analyzer? You mean like Har-Bal, right? I might could spring for that. Does Sonar have something like that?
If it does I've been missing it. Also, when you give the freqs for all those instruments, you mean I've got my drums, bass, gtr and voc on separate audio tracks and individually compress the diffrent freqs, then bounce it all down and apply the reverb and whatever other icing I think it needs, right? Or can I compress all those diffrent freqs at the same time on one stereo track? I'm picking nits here but it's important I understand what you're saying. I went back to the posts just to make sure they said what I thought. One stereo track, but applying compression to diffrent instruments on it. You can do that? I thought everything had to be separate.
One last aside, btw: of what use is the master channel in Sonar, or any sequencer? Is it special somehow?
If it does I've been missing it. Also, when you give the freqs for all those instruments, you mean I've got my drums, bass, gtr and voc on separate audio tracks and individually compress the diffrent freqs, then bounce it all down and apply the reverb and whatever other icing I think it needs, right? Or can I compress all those diffrent freqs at the same time on one stereo track? I'm picking nits here but it's important I understand what you're saying. I went back to the posts just to make sure they said what I thought. One stereo track, but applying compression to diffrent instruments on it. You can do that? I thought everything had to be separate.
One last aside, btw: of what use is the master channel in Sonar, or any sequencer? Is it special somehow?
"The Law speaks too softly to be heard amid the din of arms." -- Gaius Marius {Roman consul,soldier}
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- Mod-ulator
- 2895 posts since 31 Oct, 2000 from "Where I'm to, There I'll be"
Moe
To start ... The above Freqs are the eq frequencys to use on individual tracks if Needed.
example ...if the guitar does not sound right frequency wise ...then play with an eq on that track generally in the freq in ToTc's tips. This can also apply to the master to an extent...
If the Master mix is too bassy or sharp in the guitars then adjust in the freqs listed above.
An Analyzer ?? Not sure where i said that ...but you do not really need one at this stage.
Use your ears and compare ,.... thats the best analyzer.
Effects on the master channel effect all channels...It is the Master mix and even if you just have 1 stereo wave file you can still master it with your FX Chain on the Master inserts.
Paul
To start ... The above Freqs are the eq frequencys to use on individual tracks if Needed.
example ...if the guitar does not sound right frequency wise ...then play with an eq on that track generally in the freq in ToTc's tips. This can also apply to the master to an extent...
If the Master mix is too bassy or sharp in the guitars then adjust in the freqs listed above.
An Analyzer ?? Not sure where i said that ...but you do not really need one at this stage.
Use your ears and compare ,.... thats the best analyzer.
Effects on the master channel effect all channels...It is the Master mix and even if you just have 1 stereo wave file you can still master it with your FX Chain on the Master inserts.
Paul
Last edited by manytone on Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TotcProductions TotcProductions https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6202
- KVRAF
- 5156 posts since 5 Mar, 2003 from Franklin, NH
Nah, don't use harbal just for analyzing. Use something like elemental audio's Inspector VST, it's free and very effective. If you're looking to spend some cash, on the cheaper side, brainspawn has a nice DX plugin for sale that accomplishes this well....also, if you've got alot of money, you could spring for the waves analyzing plugins...think they are called PAZ or something like that. You could also try the free SPAN VST by voxengo. Thanx manytone for re-posting my tips in here!!! couldn't find them. lol.
Also, you should really use an analyzer to check the actual output level of the track/mix as perceived loudness (what you hear) is not always the actual DB level.
peace!
Also, you should really use an analyzer to check the actual output level of the track/mix as perceived loudness (what you hear) is not always the actual DB level.
peace!