Acid user looking to switch... Cubase or Samplitude ?

[Zacchino]

Hello !

I'm a hardcore user of Acid Pro 5.0, and looking to learn another DAW...

I've tested Sonar, but just didn't like its workflow. (Acid's power resides in its workflow especially).

I'm not friendly with shortcuts... But hey, I can learn. I'm talking about this because all Cubase users tell me "it's all about knowing the shortcuts if you want to work fast"... Well I love mouse and its drag and drop function. I love its wheel to zoom. And I don't use more than 10 shortcuts in Acid.

I'm much into audio cuting, rerythming, crossfading, selecting shots recorded and cuting them, reassembling them, picking up the best part of any shots ... even if it's only lasting for 40 ms.

You know, in Acid, zooming right in a wave file is as simmple as "Aim at the wave, roll in with your mwheel, and now you see your sample @ 1240x1024"

I'm having a lot of troubles with Acid because it's not working that well with GigaStudio (VSTi in Acid aren't that much well supported as far as I know).

Do you guys have an Idea to make me choose between these two ?

[iskandar]

why not try live, with all the looping and cutting your doing live would be perfect for that.

www.ableton.com

[Cabinfever]

zacchino, i am (was) an acidpro refugee as well. that app (for me) was getting more buggy with every release, while never delivering anything more than bells & whistles.

i moved to sonar which has virtually everything on the acid wishlist already functional.

i know you say you didn't like the workflow, but did you try out the the mangling ? double-click audio and open the clip. with auto beat detect you can then start playing with pitch, pan & amplitude envelopes for each slice.

thats just one of the tools.

i missed certain acid features, but sonar opens up a *lot* more new tools that'll free you to work in ways you don't even know about right now. and i haven't even tried the cyclone plug for more audio fun...

i heard before i bought sonar that it was the app of choice for acid refugees - and now i agree too.

i initially found the workflow not nearly as friendly as acid, but then i'd been using acid for years so no surprise there.

when a paid job came in right after i bought sonar i thought, hmmmm do i risk learning as i go with sonar, or just do this on acid as usual ?

i went with sonar and within a week was feeling very comfortable and finished the job using some very nice new tricks i discovered that acid wouldn't have had a hope of doing.

you mention the mouse-wheel zoom... that and the chopper are the only things i miss about acid, but you get plenty in compensation. the mere fact i can freeze ad archive tracks means i can contain the biggest projects in one hit rather than acid where i was forever rendering tracks and creating a messy construction 'chain' where it was very hard to go back to early elements.

and on and on. a happy ex-acid user on sonar

[Cabinfever]

hmmm ableton...

i tried that a lot of times and came very close to buying. a few things made me decide not to. they included a bad cpu hit, rumours of poor rendering (i couldn't test it using the demo of course), so-so pitch shift results, so-so midi capabilities.

but the real decider for me was that while it was great for jamming and creating little looped chunks, it didn't seem to be very friendly when it came to song construction. as an acid user i liked seeing the whole song laid out, and while live can do that, the app is far more focussed on the clip arranging view.

that's not to say i am correct with any this, it was merely my impressions after heavy demo use...

[Sascha Franck]

No recommendation regarding either Cubase or Samplitude or anything else from me (because the only thing I know is Cubase, and I hate it - so I still stick with Logic 5.5.1/PC).
But, while I agree that extended mouse (and wheel) support could be a nice thing in other programs too, generally I could only recommend learning keyboard shortcuts, especially if the program in question allows for modifying them.
For example, in Logic I just have quite some zoom functions sitting on a few keys (mostly F9-F12 in my case), such as "zoom to fit locators", "zoom to fit selection" and so on. These are so incredibly useful, I wouldn't like to miss them anymore. You'll find almost the same commands in Cubase as well, btw.

There's several more I'm using, such as "select all inside locators", "cut inside locators", "cut at song position", "set locators by selection" and so on. Incredibly useful for a speeded up workflow.
At first I thought I'd never get used to all of those because there's just too much - but after a while I added more and more personalized shortcuts and I seem to remember them all just fine.

In case the program allows for that (Logic does, Cubase doesn't), it's a good idea to print out all available keycommands and stick that list in front of the toilet seat (hell yes, I'm serious!).
Next good idea would be to take some time and go through all of them and delete all those you won't use at all. That way you won't trigger a shortcut by accident.
And finally you should concentrate on creating your own shortcuts suiting your memory.

[ResonantOrder]

Another vote here for Sonar. Although I bitched about some political stuff in the past. I finally broke down and upgraded to 4.

I think the real selling point for Sonar is the Midi Groove Clips. As far as I know, no other host has this. You can make midi clips act exactly like acid audio clips. You can transpose entire songs without having to tweak each midi track. Your midi and audio are totally locked together. It helps me work really fast.

[databass]

I'm much into audio cuting, rerythming, crossfading, selecting shots recorded and cuting them, reassembling them, picking up the best part of any shots ...

humm.. if this is your 'every day meal' .. stick with Acid, this is my advice
you know, Acid is superb for loops and breaks management
(ah.. vst instruments work well for me, have yuo tried xoxos-breaks?.. itsoo good for loops rearrenging)
the other hosts are uselessly complex for these types of job

otherwise, Live could be the natural landing place
but its another kind of workflow, and Acid streach is much better for me

ihmo

[No name]

I would second that Acid sucks a great deal when it comes to VST support. And I am in your situation. I am leaning towards either project 5 or pro tools. I was going for cubase at first because it came with System 4, but I have my doubts about it, no one seems to have it and it didn't do so well from what I know. So I like the thought of M Audio and pro tools now myself, and if not that, then Project 5. There is a demo if i am not mistaken? You should check it out and see if it's ok for you. I plan to do the same myself. I understand how you feel about the workflow in Acid though, I don't think any other Host compares when it comes to workflow. I'll miss that! But I could always Keep Acid too so it works out.

[Sascha Franck]

I am leaning towards either project 5 or pro tools.

Now, isn't that almost an oxymoron?
It's almost as saying I'd be leaning towards either a candlelight dinner or a new tennis racket.

[Zacchino]

Wow ! Fast reply ! Thanx guys.

Ok, here's the deal :

I'm fighting at Sony's forum (nick : fadengo), to make their next Acid 6 go multitrack, full blown midi, plus stability (for f* sake !!!) and propper VSTfx/instruments support (with asio direct monitoring from input, VSTi automation, HUI support).
But last week, when I saw their Vegas (video & multitrack audio software)"what's new" list from 5.0 to 6.0 - I was like "Oh my god, I have to switch, this boat really is sinking - slowly - but sinking".

I'm not bitching around, I'm just trying to bet on the good soft, so my future as a music composer is not a dead end because my DAW has been left over by its company. And God only knows how much love I have for this software.

--

Ok I admit I didin't give a real tryout chance, neither to Cubase SX 3.02 (no demo) or to Sonar 4.02 PE. (my bad)

And you guys are right : Sonar 4 seemed more friendly (about the User Interface) to me than the *Artung* ! *Ya* ! Cubase SX 2 (45 clicks for a simple cut and paste - damn).

A lot of people tell me that Cubase SX 3 is dope. But, I've never been very attracted to its workflow you get me ?

I have a great memory for melodies, ... ehm... Sex positions, but shortcuts... shortcuts and girls met in disco name, well... I must have the same amount of memory for this of a goldfish.
But I can learn, when I love something ! Look : I learned most of the main shortcuts of Acid.
So that's not the main thing disturbing me.

The thing is, that I build my beats (hip hop, house, trip-hop, and even alternative rock) in a range of 5 to 25 minutes whith acid :
I preview the right Kick in the explorer, drag it in the sequencer, paint it as much as I want it in a 4 to 8 bars loop, add some Eq and comp to shape it (Waves Req as default EQ for Audio Tracks).
Then I preview a two or four Snares in the explorer, drag it in the sequencer, paint it, cut em and soft-edging them. Route all the snares in a Bus that I rename "Snares", where I chain Eqs, Room ambiance, and a limiter.
Same thing for hit hats. And it's done !

Another thing I never saw in other software, that keeps me away from making the jump, is Acid's Grid : what you see is what you get. The more you zoom, the more the grid gets precise. That's how I know how to place my Kick, Snare, and shuffle a bit my Hit Hats.

So, I can tell you, I really trust this KVR community since a while.

If you guys cand light up my case, I'd feel so released !!! Now that I'm a pro, I have these freakin insane deadlines, and If I switch, it's for good and for long.

Thanx in advance for reading this (too) long post.

[bugs]

Might check out Sonar too if you're loop oriented.

[Cabinfever]

sonar has no problem making beats as you describe. you can do it in exactly the same way.

[bduffy]

As a former Sonar and ACID (the program has kinda sucked since after v3) Junkie, I'm surprised you don't find Sonar right up your alley! I always found the two apps very similar - or at least compatible - especially when you consider that Sonar has a Loop Explorer, just like ACID, that auditions your wave files in sync, and you can drag 'n' drop in that free and easy DX environment. I think what you might like is Sonar 1 or 2; it really felt the same as ACID, but with all the MIDI power you'd want (plus video support)

Now I'm a devoted Cubase/Nuendo guy - but that took a couple of years to reluctantly switch over. MAN did I hate the Cubase workflow at first, but now I think it slays. But one reason I don't use ACID much any more is the lack of Keyboard shortcuts. But like I said, I used to pray at tha alter of ACID.

Of course Cubase (finally!) supports ACID, but if you prefer a click+drag+drop environment, then SX doesn't sound like your game. I'd say go for Sonar-still a great app.

[deastman]

I'm an ex-Acid user too. I use Nuendo at work, and have never been too thrilled with the workflow. I decided to switch to Sonar at home, and I've been extremely satisfied with the choice. I find it does almost everything Acid did, and so much more, while maintaining a much cleaner, streamlined interface than Nuendo/Cubase. The audio track editing/slicing/looping/bouncing tools are excellent. Really, my only complaints are the previously mentioned mousewheel issue, and the lack of native VST support. I find it very irritating to have to rescan my VST folder with the adapter every time I add a freebie plugin. Usually, I just end up using Orion (my other host) for quick VSTi noodling, and only rescan my plugins for Sonar if I really like some new plugin.

I would really encourage you to give Sonar another try. If you don't like its workflow, I suspect you'll hate Cubase even more.

[Jaeson Merrill]

ex-acid user here.

FLstudio for beats and arrangments, Samplitude for Audio.