No, thanks, I'll just buy the instrument.
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- KVRian
- 1181 posts since 6 Jun, 2002 from Southern Germany
I agree with you lunch money. I also find these efforts to make a keyboard "guitar strumming" quite bizarre. but that might also be my one-sided perspective because I can play the guitar already and don't have to learn it anymore. on the other hand it is probably the same with the big e-bass libraries/emulations. get a cheap e-bass and practise a few days and you'll get probably better results than with any library. I catch myself out using the library. ok...but for some other reasons...I've got trouble with my hands...and e-bass is so damn hard to play...these fat stringz
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- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
It takes real skills to play real instruments well. It just takes time and inspiration to program them in midi. If you're just looking for simple strums or simple basslines, sure just go buy a guitar and bass and spend 10 minutes learning them (even this is pretty insulting to bassists and guitarists IMO) but I bet you'll sound like crap. It takes reall practice and some talent with an instrument to get usable results IMO.
I don't have any contention with someone wanting the real thing, but I don't understand why it is hard to understand why someone would want a VST that can do realistic rhythm guitar parts. What about drums? What's the difference really? Why don't you go out and get a real drum kit?
I don't have any contention with someone wanting the real thing, but I don't understand why it is hard to understand why someone would want a VST that can do realistic rhythm guitar parts. What about drums? What's the difference really? Why don't you go out and get a real drum kit?
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I would, and I want to. Half the drum things I hear in my head aren't that complex, but I'd get better results with a drum kit. I'd absolutely love it.
In the meantime, though, surely you can see that there is a difference. Don't be contrary just for the sake of being contrary. My original post discussed the disparity between a piano and a guitar. A single piece of a drum kit (say a snare) is hit, producing a snare crack. You can hit it at different strengths to get different sounds. This is easily reproducible in a velocity-sensitive keyboard.
What I'm referring to is using a very dissimilar instrument to try to recreate a sound that is very cumbersome to do with a keyboard or MIDI.
I understand that it could be useful. My point isn't that it's "useless" to do so. My point is simply that I bet a lot of keyboards would get more mileage out of learning to strum a guitar than they would in figuring out how to program a strummed guitar using samples. There's just so much that you can't do with MIDI or a keyboard when it comes to strummed/chorded guitar. Or more accurately, I'm not even making that point, but asking -- isn't it reasonable to at least consider learning the guitar instead of spending hundreds of dollars on a library and hundreds of hours fine-tuning it when it STILL won't sound like a strummed guitar?
As for the practice/training-- sure, you get better with time. But you can get usable results (especially if you don't mind doing re-takes, which is what I have to do for piano parts since I'm not truly a pianist) within a few months, or even weeks. You don't need to be a master in order to create something useful (AND more complex than you could do with MIDI/keyboard).
Greg
In the meantime, though, surely you can see that there is a difference. Don't be contrary just for the sake of being contrary. My original post discussed the disparity between a piano and a guitar. A single piece of a drum kit (say a snare) is hit, producing a snare crack. You can hit it at different strengths to get different sounds. This is easily reproducible in a velocity-sensitive keyboard.
What I'm referring to is using a very dissimilar instrument to try to recreate a sound that is very cumbersome to do with a keyboard or MIDI.
I understand that it could be useful. My point isn't that it's "useless" to do so. My point is simply that I bet a lot of keyboards would get more mileage out of learning to strum a guitar than they would in figuring out how to program a strummed guitar using samples. There's just so much that you can't do with MIDI or a keyboard when it comes to strummed/chorded guitar. Or more accurately, I'm not even making that point, but asking -- isn't it reasonable to at least consider learning the guitar instead of spending hundreds of dollars on a library and hundreds of hours fine-tuning it when it STILL won't sound like a strummed guitar?
As for the practice/training-- sure, you get better with time. But you can get usable results (especially if you don't mind doing re-takes, which is what I have to do for piano parts since I'm not truly a pianist) within a few months, or even weeks. You don't need to be a master in order to create something useful (AND more complex than you could do with MIDI/keyboard).
Greg
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
Aye...and I for one always felt like a bit of a silly git trying to play instrument samples from a keyboard. Surely it's the same way an accomplished guitarist feels whilst trying to play an organ patch from a guitar synth.Vegetarian wrote:I'm one of those people who buys synths because I want them to sound synthetic, not like a guitar or a string orchestra at all
I remember hearing an Akai saxaphone sample being played on a Don Henley record and thinking, "What *are* you doing??"
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders - Lao Tzu
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- KVRist
- 320 posts since 24 Apr, 2004 from Right behind you NYC
[quote="braj"]It takes real skills to play real instruments well.
Now only if you would respect the only true instrument you have , which are your ears, there is no such thing as a fake instrument its just as hard to play any instrument well if you dont have the musical ear to do so.
So to put a end to this debate if your ears are bad and you have no natural rythum or beat, trying to think your gonna have a easy time on the keyboard huh, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
Just face it the guitar and keyboards are equally challenging especially for someone who isnt burned out or has a fresh aproach to knowing how to keep rythum or come up with NEW ideas.
Anyone can mimic Clapton or Wonder but can you mimic yourself and obtain the kind of success that the two legends Ive mentioned above?
That my dear Watson is the 10 million dollar question. In a nutshell there are at least 10 keyboard players to every guitar player in the world, which instrument profession has the toughest road to travel?
Keyboards of course cause life is a numbers game and youde have a better shot at sounding original with a guitar than the keyboard, easy to play but hard to be original with it, just ask Stevie Wonder.
Dayo of NJ Inc. Music * Communications
CEO and Exec VP of A&R Len Burke
Now only if you would respect the only true instrument you have , which are your ears, there is no such thing as a fake instrument its just as hard to play any instrument well if you dont have the musical ear to do so.
So to put a end to this debate if your ears are bad and you have no natural rythum or beat, trying to think your gonna have a easy time on the keyboard huh, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
Just face it the guitar and keyboards are equally challenging especially for someone who isnt burned out or has a fresh aproach to knowing how to keep rythum or come up with NEW ideas.
Anyone can mimic Clapton or Wonder but can you mimic yourself and obtain the kind of success that the two legends Ive mentioned above?
That my dear Watson is the 10 million dollar question. In a nutshell there are at least 10 keyboard players to every guitar player in the world, which instrument profession has the toughest road to travel?
Keyboards of course cause life is a numbers game and youde have a better shot at sounding original with a guitar than the keyboard, easy to play but hard to be original with it, just ask Stevie Wonder.
Dayo of NJ Inc. Music * Communications
CEO and Exec VP of A&R Len Burke
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- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
OK, semi thread hijack coming....
I have been noticing a methodological divide among musicians. Not just here, but generally. There is no neat sort of dichotomy, but rather a series of compromises between the two extremes of total real time music (as in a recorded orchestral concert without overdubs) and totally non real time music (as in a midi sequencer playing a midi file using only synths with no samples).
In reality, every point on the continuum between those extremes is as 'valid' as any other (though we really should stop abusing that word, 'worth while' is probably better).
But people forget this so easily, getting wrapped up in weird little things that are parenthetical to the creation of music.
By all means sample every single object in the world. Emulate whatever you wish to emulate.
But if the fastest and best sounding way of getting a part is to play it on a real instrument, there is something....weird..., about going at it the long way around just for the sake of methodological purity.
Its like being an orchestral composer who won't even try midi or sampling or anything, but instead holds out for 'the real thing' to the exclusion of any other approach. It seems like you would be cheating yourself.
Not that anyone here is like this.
I'm just sort of babbling, really.
g'night all.
I have been noticing a methodological divide among musicians. Not just here, but generally. There is no neat sort of dichotomy, but rather a series of compromises between the two extremes of total real time music (as in a recorded orchestral concert without overdubs) and totally non real time music (as in a midi sequencer playing a midi file using only synths with no samples).
In reality, every point on the continuum between those extremes is as 'valid' as any other (though we really should stop abusing that word, 'worth while' is probably better).
But people forget this so easily, getting wrapped up in weird little things that are parenthetical to the creation of music.
By all means sample every single object in the world. Emulate whatever you wish to emulate.
But if the fastest and best sounding way of getting a part is to play it on a real instrument, there is something....weird..., about going at it the long way around just for the sake of methodological purity.
Its like being an orchestral composer who won't even try midi or sampling or anything, but instead holds out for 'the real thing' to the exclusion of any other approach. It seems like you would be cheating yourself.
Not that anyone here is like this.
I'm just sort of babbling, really.
g'night all.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
You encapsulated my feelings much better than I could. What was sort of a vague sense of puzzlement manifested itself in the 'guitar vs. keyboard' thing, but now that I've read your above post, it resonates more with what I was feeling but unable to express.
Cheers!
Greg
Cheers!
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
Aw, hell I am sleep walking here.Lunch Money wrote:You encapsulated my feelings much better than I could. What was sort of a vague sense of puzzlement manifested itself in the 'guitar vs. keyboard' thing, but now that I've read your above post, it resonates more with what I was feeling but unable to express.
Cheers!
Greg
Maybe I was channeling or something....
Now I really must go to bed.
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- KVRian
- 901 posts since 1 Dec, 2003
herodotus wrote:OK, semi thread hijack coming....
I have been noticing a methodological divide among musicians. Not just here, but generally. There is no neat sort of dichotomy, but rather a series of compromises between the two extremes of total real time music (as in a recorded orchestral concert without overdubs) and totally non real time music (as in a midi sequencer playing a midi file using only synths with no samples).
In reality, every point on the continuum between those extremes is as 'valid' as any other (though we really should stop abusing that word, 'worth while' is probably better).
But people forget this so easily, getting wrapped up in weird little things that are parenthetical to the creation of music.
By all means sample every single object in the world. Emulate whatever you wish to emulate.
But if the fastest and best sounding way of getting a part is to play it on a real instrument, there is something....weird..., about going at it the long way around just for the sake of methodological purity.
Its like being an orchestral composer who won't even try midi or sampling or anything, but instead holds out for 'the real thing' to the exclusion of any other approach. It seems like you would be cheating yourself.
Not that anyone here is like this.
I'm just sort of babbling, really.
g'night all.
Damn good post.
Last edited by Landphil on Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 3345 posts since 8 Nov, 2003 from Amsterdam
This has become a very interesting thread, although I was asleep during most part of it 
Other than that, most things have already been said.
I notice for myself that I'm dichotomizing between playing guitar samples on my keyboard and running into the limits of usability, then going back to playing guitar myself, and running into the limits of my skill and technique. Probably a more expensive sampler and keyboard (aftertouch etc.) or a more expensive guitar will solve that though .
The guitarist who do not pick up keyboard skills or go electronic will probably not go to kvraudio.comLunch Money wrote:Why are guitarists often willing (and even eager!!) to pick up keyboard skills, while (around here at least), keyboardists continue spending inordinate amounts of time trying (and failing) to make an acoustic guitar strum?
Other than that, most things have already been said.
I notice for myself that I'm dichotomizing between playing guitar samples on my keyboard and running into the limits of usability, then going back to playing guitar myself, and running into the limits of my skill and technique
. Probably a more expensive sampler and keyboard (aftertouch etc.) or a more expensive guitar will solve that though .-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
herodotus, really. That could've been the first post of the thread and it would've all been over. <grin>
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- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
Funny thing is, he's expressing my viewpoint as much as yours:Lunch Money wrote:herodotus, really. That could've been the first post of the thread and it would've all been over. <grin>
Its like being an orchestral composer who won't even try midi or sampling or anything, but instead holds out for 'the real thing' to the exclusion of any other approach. It seems like you would be cheating yourself.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Sort of.
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- KVRist
- 331 posts since 24 Mar, 2002 from Denmark
Yes, I got the CZ-1000 (same with full-size keys). It wasn't the type of casio-keyboard I referred to though, and I don't think a lot of mommies ever bought a CZ* for their little 5-year old. Wish they did though. I heard a lot of Depeche Mode and Kraftwerk etc apologetically performed on early 80s toy-keybords and arrangers back in highschool.Stairsteps wrote:(weren't any casios back then, thank god).
The Casio CZ-101 was and still is a great little keyboard
Bollocks. I'm musician enough to easily support my family as well as not to feel the need to define myself by other interesting titles. You're right that I haven't interviewed any musicians though, except to fill a position in a band. Why else would I do that? That's not my job.Stairsteps wrote:As far as guitars go you're not bloody likely to develop your own signature sound if you don't play guitar as your first instrument.
Not even remotely true but I bet you havent met enough muscians or interviewed enough to validate that claim.
Dayo of NJ Inc. Music * Communications
CEO and Exec VP of A&R Len Burke
Thing is that when you put five hours worth of dedication a day into your main instrument on top of band-duties and jobs, whenever are you going to work enough on your second to develop something that takes years for people having it as main in the first place? It's not something you dial up in a vst, you know. A signature sound is equal parts personal playing style and carefully selected gear.
There's no putting the main's five hours into the second either, that's called switching instrument.