What's the point of mixers in software sequencers?

[SJ_Digriz]

No. I'm honestly not. To me, the lines of the meter have absolutely nothing to do with the mix. Frankly, it actually boggles my mind that you would need to see the fader 'line', regardless of sequencer. Why would it matter? You listen to the song and say, "Hmm... seems as though the strings are sitting a bit loud." How can seeing Logic's full-sized faders help you hear a mix better?

What happened to your EARS, man??? You don't mix with your eyes!!!!! Honestly, I'm literally baffled at the concept of needing to "see" the fader in order to know where the instrument is sitting in your mix.

I may be talkative, verbose... I may get into debates... but I'm always honest, and I've always admitted when somebody's called me out on something I may not have even been aware of. And I can tell you with absolute certainty that if Tracktion didn't exist and I was using ANY other sequencer, I would still mix according to what my ears tell me.

Oh, and...

If you can pick a vocal or a string out of 15 to 20 similar vocals or strings that are all feeding a submix, you have better ears than 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of pros out there.

Seriously though, when you have dense track counts of similar level it can be a total bitch to isolate specific problems. Seeing levels on the mixer is like the only way I know of. You don't use them to determine how loud something is, you use them to see relative difference.

I can easily hear that there is a problem, finding the offending track in a project list can be a total drag.

[SJ_Digriz]

I'd just like to add that I don't have anything against Tracktion. For some reason this always turns into this vs. that. The question was simple. Why have a mixer in software. The answer is just as simple. Because, in certain situations it is the easiest most efficient method to manage levels for a mix. I can see if you have few tracks that maybe the benefit begins to diminish somewhat. For example if I have a straight up vocal comp I don't use the mixer.

Another screwy issue is that I read left to right, not top to bottom. I just find it screwy to have to look at the list and have the faders at no common position. It may not bother you, but it bothers me.

[Lunch Money]

SJ, are you telling me that you don't mix with your ears? Instead of arguing the point, at least agree for the love of all things good and holy that mixing is about your ears, not your eyes, otherwise I will have lost all faith in you.

Regarding the occasional need for visual cues, though, that's fair enough. For my stuff, I will never (that's right, never) need visual cues, which doesn't make me better than "99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999...%" of pros (chill out with the hyperbole, dude), it just means that I'm not using 20 similar vocals into a submix. Frankly, it's not like it's a daily occurrence that a pro will do so, either. Unless you're recording Enya. There's more of a movement toward simplifying and getting a raw performance, when it comes to musicians of note (ie. not Ashlee Simpson).

Back to the point, though-- fine, you need an occasional visual cue. It's not like your track sizes HAVE to be small in Tracktion. Just resize them and find your offender, if that's how you're going to sleuth it out.

Greg

[SJ_Digriz]

SJ, are you telling me that you don't mix with your ears?

NO!!! dang it read what I wrote. I CAN HEAR WHAT IS WRONG. It's finding it in the project list that's a problem.

[Lunch Money]

But, I already addressed that in the very post you took the quote from.

[SJ_Digriz]

There's more of a movement toward simplifying and getting a raw performance, when it comes to musicians of note (ie. not Ashlee Simpson).

You mean a movement to record a cat being beaten then autotuned?

[SJ_Digriz]

But, I already addressed that in the very post you took the quote from.

Yes, but you discounted it as trivial. I work with a lot of orchestral type projects. It ain't trivial bud.
{edit}I don't mean the scores aren't trivial, some of them are dang stupid. I mean that finding an articulation that is peeking can be a bitch in a project with 300+ tracks.

[SJ_Digriz]

Also working with multi-out vsts and samplers is a lot easier in mixer view as well. I find it a total nightmare on the project window, but again that could just be habit.

Any time I start using samplers I'm gonna have a bitch load of tracks.

[Lunch Money]

If I dismissed it as trivial, then I apologize. What I meant to say was simply that you CAN use visual cues in Tracktion, too. You're not excluded from that technique just because the filters resize dynamically.

The left-right and alignment of the faders is a separate issue, too, though, and I always forget about it until people bring it up. I can't really argue against it. You're right that it doesn't bother me in the least, but if it DOES bother someone else, I can see why people are interested in locking filter sizes (which would enable such alignment).

The horizontal vs. vertical alignment thing will never be addressed in Tracktion because that would break the very core of its raison d'etre. I wonder, though-- if hardware mixers were aligned the other way, would you want your software sequencer to be aligned that way?

Or in other words: I wonder how much of your preference is informed by your familiarity with the hardware design?

[braj]

Another screwy issue is that I read left to right, not top to bottom. I just find it screwy to have to look at the list and have the faders at no common position. It may not bother you, but it bothers me.

I agree, it would be easier to deal with if the faders were all in a horizontal row. I really don't know why you couldn't have the contextual area in the bottom of T turn into a mixer that shows certain filters for every track. Filter out the things you don't want and have the filter path show from top to bottom. Then the throw of the filters could be longer as well. Make the mixer available when you hit 'Master' or something. I'd find it a lot more useful personally.

And Lunch Money, think what you want to think. I know what works for me.

[Lunch Money]

Braj, don't be obstinate. You KNOW that your ears are more important than some line on a level fader. That's all I'm saying.

[braj]

Braj, don't be obstinate. You KNOW that your ears are more important than some line on a level fader. That's all I'm saying.

Talking about obstinate I like the visual feedback and how it relates to what is going on in my mix, especially regarding automation. That's a personal preference and not dependent on your approval.

[Lunch Money]

[braj]

I'm not hugging you




oh, ok...... but don't go taking that the wrong way now, I'm married.

[Lunch Money]

(I AM an obstinate motherf**er, too, though.)