English by non English speaking people

[insaneacyde]

I actually prefer reading/hearing lyrics from obscure bands like Amorphis (who are Finnish i believe?) than mindless spam from alot of native 'English' lyricists. We all know them, they can only sing about enjoying the pleasures of the flesh or missing out on them 'cause they where doin it with someone else yo.

[Jafo]

Jafo: The point is that in the real world "international English" exists. It's not formalized. It's not regulated.

And is therefore not a language at all -- more of a loose association of mutually-incomprehensible idiolects. Languages are standardized, whereas "International English" is neither standardized nor English.

See, we don't really disagree much on this point; I simply hold the standard forms of English in higher and quite possibly unrealistic esteem than you. But I do have good reasons -- standards make communication easier.

Case in point: even in tiny provincial Central Michigan we have a lot of of non-native speakers of English, and they usually find it harder to understand each other than to understand us native speakers. When I was flipping burgers at McHell, one of my official duties was translator between differing International Englishes.

But it's a reality. And speakers of one of the several "national Englishes" should be aware of this and communicate accordingly. They have an advantage (they know the language by heart) and a disadvantage (they know the language too well). I hope I'm clear. Probably not. And now I'll give this thread back to Bonteburg.

No, you are quite clear and correct. Compromises must be made in the real world. As I wrote in reply to Whyterabbit, "But then, I find content to be far more important than perfect form." And you're right on these points; it's just that standards are there for many good (and some bad) reasons.

Please, don't get me wrong. I enjoy and even cherish these differences in language. But I don't confuse them with formal standards.

[respirator]

And thus we agree

[kovacs]

Hah. There is no room in the room. But there is a lot of space in space.

[whyterabbyt]

But I can make room. I cant make space.

[respirator]

If god could, surely you can too?

[LBN]

Languages are standardized

Do you have the ISO number for that standard?

[seamoss]

sigur ros

[Ja.x]

This is a very interesting thread. I know some foreigner people here that once they learn Portuguese they speak it "better" than we do (i.e. they speak "by the book"). So probably the same happens everywhere with every language. For our ears brasilien and african people speak funny, but we can't really say that's wrong. And surely it's an experience that English, Spanish and French speakers (to name some languages spoken in different continents) can describe in the same way. It's an interesting thing and "me likes" even if Shakespeare ever returned to earth he would die again from language attack

[Miro]

...and so it is no longer pertinent to speak of teaching a 'literacy' for that is to deny the social relations of power embedded within a 'standard' schooled form of teaching; but more relevant to speak of 'literacies' - context-dependant forms of communication and the appropriate values given to them.

er...or something

[emdot_ambient]

I'm havin' a real hard time understan' y'all on this here thread. I'm American, see? I speak American. Hard to foller y'all yackin' in yer funny accients.

But seriously, I like to hear different voices in English. The language is so messed up because it wasn't "invented by people" as someone said; languages aren't invented, they are grown. And they evolve along with the history of the people speaking it. English is a mixed up mussed up hodgepodge of all sorts of influences. German, French, Greek, Latin, Afrikaans, Albanian, Spanish, Arabic, Armenian, Assyrian, Autralian, Hindi, Chinese, Gaelic, Persian, Portugese, Welsh, Russian, Slavic . . . you name it, English has it in there somewhere.

I even like poorly translated songs. Sometimes it's hard to tell what's just bad translation and what's just weird language, though. Like one of my favorite prog rock bands from Italy was Sensation's Fix. Their song Strange About Your Hands had these lines:

Once I used to know a man
He could perform on any tricks with his hand
The one I used to mostly like to ask
Was to maginify the sound of his guitar

Strange about your hands when you touch me
Strange about your hands when you hear me go


Don't know what it means but I like it!

Oh, and if there is such a thing as International English, I'd suggest it is black hip-hop English. It's everywhere, it's everywhere!

[Hovmod]

Oh, and if there is such a thing as International English, I'd suggest it is black hip-hop English. It's everywhere, it's everywhere!

Word!

[seamoss]

S.O.D. said it best with "Speak English or _ _ _"

[anoke]

Word - Write letterz n shit, yo? (images.google.com "word")

And not being totally and completely off-topic - some reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_di ... h_language
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/standard.htm

I can't answer the question first asked as English is my second language (mother tongue is some weird uralic language called Finnish) but I don't care about language so much if the singer has enough presence.


(and Esperanto? Ido is better - that's why it is called "improved Esperanto" )