KVR Audio

Kraku · Post by **Kraku** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:46 am

I've been lately getting more and more interested in the production side of music making. I've been mainly using Ableton Live 4 for everything, but now that I want to do some intense mixing sessions, I run out of processing power and everything gets slow

I've realized that I might actually need 16-32 channels, each with their own effects/eqs/compressors/etc. and that's surely going to eat LOTS of cpu.

So far my projects have been in a single project file, everything done in realtime (even the final mixes), no bouncing or anything. I quess this won't be possible for me any longer. I need to rethink my working methods and reinvent the wheel how to make my music. I like fast and very hands on result oriented working methods, but I also like to tweak the sounds alot to fit the mix.

First I tried a method which seemed to suit me quite well: I made a project file for each instrument I was using in the song. Each of these projects had a bounced main mix of the master song in them and another track containing the realtime version of the instrument the project file was created for. Then I would tweak the instrument track to fit the song (and mix) in that project and then I would bounce it and add to the main mix project and do some cutting and pasting there...

Because Ableton Live 4 is such a CPU hog, this method still became hard to use. For me, there are also a couple of more drawbacks using Ableton Live for mixing:

1) No track freeze. This would save tremendous amounts of CPU. Bouncing is ofcourse possible, but it's very slow to do it manually and gets on my nerves.

2) Muting the tracks doesn't stop the processing of those tracks, meaning that CPU is wasted on tracks I don't want to hear or use at that point.

3) Because my laptop doesn't have very big screen, not many tracks fit the screen at the same time.

4) There is no grouping of tracks for cutting and pasting. This would be tremendously helpful for drums, for example, then you could have 5-8 drum tracks and handle them as only one track when editing them (cut/paste).

So. Is there a host/software which would be a dream to use for mixing/editing/mastering and would fix those four things I mentioned above? I still want to produce all the tracks/loops I use in Ableton Live 4 and then build the song in some other software.

If the software had features to make it easy to use loops rendered in Live, all the better. I'm not going to use VSTi's in that software. Only VST's for effecting. All the source sound generation will be done elsewhere.

So the request list is: track freeze, track groups for editing, mute shuts down the track processing, easy use of sample loops (no time stretching or pitch shifting is necessary), VST support (for effects) would be nice but not mandatory, lots of tracks fit the screen at the same time.

Is there such a software on this planet which would fit my needs and make me happy? Also could you people tell me a bit about your workflow, how you make sure you don't run out of CPU and how you mix your tracks? Do you do it in another software? Do you bounce the tracks all the time, one by one? etc. etc...

Thanks in advance

Oh! And I don't need any video capabilities. Just a software for traditional music production.

popsych · Post by **popsych** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:32 am

If resolution critical automation is important for you i would say go with a lite version of cubase, sonar, or Pro tools LE, the latter being more capable at audio editing than the other two in my mind. However if it isn't then samplitude classic could fulfil this role perfectly with even more powerful audio features than PT.
I chose it to do my mixdowns of productions finished in Logic

Kraku · Post by **Kraku** » Thu May 05, 2005 8:15 pm

OK. I've been testing all the software I can, but Cubase doesn't have a demo (or it does but it's some VERY old version of it

).

So far Adobe Audition is the best software I found for my use, but it has it's limitations also. I was thinking how well the Cubase would suit me.

So what I've gathered the Cubase has track freeze and track groups? What about sidechaining? It would be a big bonus. Can you flatten the tracks visuals to very thin blocks so that you can fit 16-20 tracks on the screen at the same time?

What about Nuendo?

SonicBreeze · Post by **SonicBreeze** » Thu May 05, 2005 8:53 pm

Go for Cubase (I prefer SX v2.xx)if you are on PC. You wont regret it. Cubase and Nuendo have same capabilities for music production. Nuendo has the feature for video, dolby and surround etc if you need it at all. But Nuendo is far more costly. IMHO Cubase is CPU friendly too( It works great surprizingly on my older machine with P-III,650 Mhz,256mb ram). You dont even need to demo it.It is the best among the lot I think. There are lot of people will suggest Traktion, eXT, SONAR and others but I feel they are not so easy to handle before you read manuals for hours. Cubase has ASIO, VST, Folder/Group tracks, Freeze and all other capabilities you can think. It is a hard to beat software. Ofcourse everyone has their own choices...mine is Cubase..

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Sat May 07, 2005 4:03 pm

So what I've gathered the Cubase has track freeze and track groups?

Yes to both - personally I don't use freeze (I find bouncing just as easy) but apparently the freezing in SX3 is alot quicker (used to be quite slow in earlier versions)
Grouping - yes.

What about sidechaining

Yes...although Cubase itself doesn't do it; you need plugins that have sidechain ability. But Cubase will happily accommodate stereo and mono sidechaining plugins. Both SX2 and 3.

Can you flatten the tracks visuals to very thin blocks so that you can fit 16-20 tracks on the screen at the same time?

Yes, definitely. You can squish them down very small. I normally have 16-20 channels on the go, and I can see them all. I also have room for some of my saved muted midi channels that have been rendered to audio too, or FX channels or automation channels. And Cubase will also let you expand individual channels. Say you wanted to write or edit some automation - you can make the automation channel large, but keep all your other channels small so that you can see everything still, but be able to edit in fine detail.

Cubase tends to be a bit cluttered, but you can customise it down to your own liking to a great degree. What you first see is not necessarily what you're stuck with (fortunately, because out of the box, it isn't pretty or user-friendly to a large degree

)

Having said all of that .... I'd be surprised if most of the other big hosts don't also have those features too....

stale bread · Post by **stale bread** » Sat May 07, 2005 4:08 pm

how bout project 5

SoftJunkie · Post by **SoftJunkie** » Sat May 07, 2005 4:19 pm

sonar 4 does everything you mentioned and is very easy to use. i love it.

Def Dave · Post by **Def Dave** » Sat May 07, 2005 4:23 pm

What about ardour?
http://www.ardour.org

k-bird · Post by **k-bird** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:08 pm

Tracktion does everything except for that last one.

Kraku · Post by **Kraku** » Sun May 08, 2005 9:32 pm

I quess I'll check out that Cubase SX3 in my local shop (if it's possible to test it there) and see if it doesn't eat too much CPU or do anything surpricing which makes mixing big projects hard...

Thanks for the suggestions and info

Steffen Fuerst · Post by **Steffen Fuerst** » Mon May 09, 2005 12:06 pm

Check also Samplitude Classic, i think that this will fit to your needs nearly perfect (as an example it has a much better freeze function then Cubase, needs less CPU ...).

Kraku · Post by **Kraku** » Mon May 09, 2005 2:56 pm

Just bought the Cubase SX3 today. So far so good. Looks capable for the job I bought it for. A small downside are the effects that came bundled with it, but then again I didn't buy SX3 for it's effects in the first place.

All in all it looks like it gets the job done pretty well

Using the SX3 got me thinking: If this software has pretty much everything you could think of needing for audio production/mixing, what's the deal with Pro Tools (except that it has become an industry standard)? Is there something it does better than SX3? Some important features maybe?

popsych · Post by **popsych** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:21 pm

Steffen Fuerst wrote:Check also Samplitude Classic, i think that this will fit to your needs nearly perfect (as an example it has a much better freeze function then Cubase, needs less CPU ...).

As i said above too, for just mixing (<64 tracks), samplitude classic is at least great if you don't need more than 7 bit automation. Has built in fx that would cost around $300 to get in plugs for SX, audio editing tools on par with wavelab and audition and excellent dithering so when viewed as a mixing console it is great (for only $499). It's also to me the program that has improved the most during the past year and one that has set the bar in a lot of things and frankly others strive to follow. And the object orientation in it is trully amazing.

That said someone suggested Nuendo which is good, and i see you bought SX3 which is basically Nuendo with just 7.1 surround instead of 12.1 (very minor niggle IMO) and no post features (useless just for mixing). Hope you are happy with your choice, still a big fat IMHO here but for me Samplitude is much better suited to this task.

PT has it's place mainly cause it's DSP based and more or less of a standard. Today it's not really a matter of which host can do something others don't but which area does that host focuses on or is better/faster : E.g. Logic - strong MIDI, DP - scoring for film, PT for comping and audio work . . . welll you get my point. So anything one host can do can be done in any other host today but with a different number of steps, quality and/or speed and efficiency.

Steffen Fuerst · Post by **Steffen Fuerst** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:27 pm

popsych wrote:samplitude classic is at least great if you don't need more than 7 bit automation.

This will be improved in 8.2.

popsych · Post by **popsych** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:37 pm

Steffen Fuerst wrote:
popsych wrote:samplitude classic is at least great if you don't need more than 7 bit automation.
This will be improved in 8.2.

Will it really ? I didn't see it announced anywhere. Will just these niggle be fixed or will the automation system get the much needed overhaul it needs and be on par with Logic/PT or better ?

. This will make me buy SAMP professional if done along with the rest of the announced update features

Need a host/software specifically for mixing & editing