Which sequencer has the BEST midi implementation?

[spaceman]

If you REALLY care about MIDI editing, especially in terms of quantizing, note editing and so on, try to find a second hand Windows version of Logic.
In case you need better plugin control in addition, add EnergyXT to it.

You'll end up with the most comprehensible MIDI engine there is (ok, no MIDI plugins, but that's about the only shortcoming) and in addition you'll get what still is happening to be the most efficient audio engine too.

And yes, I'm serious about this.
I tried to switch to Cubase SX and simply can't because of its lame implementation of anything MIDI related, especially when it comes to quantizing and MIDI CC control. And of course the bloated UI along with the inefficient audio engine add a great portion of dissapointment too.

aprt from that, what would you say are other draw-backs when using logic 5.xx for windows?

[popsych]

If you REALLY care about MIDI editing, especially in terms of quantizing, note editing and so on, try to find a second hand Windows version of Logic.
In case you need better plugin control in addition, add EnergyXT to it.

You'll end up with the most comprehensible MIDI engine there is (ok, no MIDI plugins, but that's about the only shortcoming) and in addition you'll get what still is happening to be the most efficient audio engine too.

And yes, I'm serious about this.
I tried to switch to Cubase SX and simply can't because of its lame implementation of anything MIDI related, especially when it comes to quantizing and MIDI CC control. And of course the bloated UI along with the inefficient audio engine add a great portion of dissapointment too.

aprt from that, what would you say are other draw-backs when using logic 5.xx for windows?

NONE whatsoever. And i say that in all certainty (i think )

[Sascha Franck]

aprt from that, what would you say are other draw-backs when using logic 5.xx for windows?

Drawbacks of Logic/Windows:
- No freeze. But with an engine that efficient you won't need it all that often.
- No realtime layering of VSTi tracks. That's why I recommended EnergyXT as an addon.
- Incompatibility with some plugins. Again, EnergyXT will fix quite some of those.
- No offline bounce. Yes, highly annoying in case you want to quickly mixdown a whole bunch of mixes to compare somewhere else. But then, in case your CPU useage is above the 50% marks in other sequencers, you won't save all that much time either.
- No proper audio time stretch. Depends on whether you need it. I usually don't, and admittedly, if I do, I find myself reaching for SX 3. Yes, a shortcoming for sure (as said, in case you need it).
- Weird MIDI control of FX plugins (possible though, just the routing is a bit mad). Probably some of the issues could be adressed by using EnergyXT.
- Nothing like "warp" or "liquid" audio. Again, it all depends on whether you need it.
- No easy MIDI assignment of plugin parameters. But then, SX completely fails with that too, unless you
want to use the bloated generic remote control.
- No PDC on busses. Defenitely a shortcoming if you want to use things such as DSP cards and FX like SIR on busses.

As you can see, the shortcomings are mostly on the audio treating side of things. Still the engine is more efficient than anything else I tried yet.
And MIDI-wise it's almost unbeatable.
In addition, considering you can get a fully authorized version, you'll get a highly efficient sampler, a whole bunch of great sounding other virtual instruments (the EVD6 and EVB3 are unbeatable and the ES2 is still one of the best sounding VAs), a vast array of very useful effects (OK, you won't need a compressor like Logics... also there's better EQs and reverbs for sure) and a beautifully looking (IMO at least), uncluttered and user configurable mixer.

For me, the shortcomings on the audio side of things still don't weigh as much as the advances regarding a lot of other features. And I can't see anything else coming even remotely close so far. It's actually making me wonder... I thought Cubase had become more mature between VST 3.x and SX (which was the period I left out in my updates, due to Logic heaven), but actually the opposite is the case. It's less intuitive and they even left out some rather important features (such as audio to MIDI) which were existing (and working fine) in older versions.

[spaceman]

aprt from that, what would you say are other draw-backs when using logic 5.xx for windows?

Drawbacks of Logic/Windows:
- No freeze. But with an engine that efficient you won't need it all that often.
- No realtime layering of VSTi tracks. That's why I recommended EnergyXT as an addon.
- Incompatibility with some plugins. Again, EnergyXT will fix quite some of those.
- No offline bounce. Yes, highly annoying in case you want to quickly mixdown a whole bunch of mixes to compare somewhere else. But then, in case your CPU useage is above the 50% marks in other sequencers, you won't save all that much time either.
- No proper audio time stretch. Depends on whether you need it. I usually don't, and admittedly, if I do, I find myself reaching for SX 3. Yes, a shortcoming for sure (as said, in case you need it).
- Weird MIDI control of FX plugins (possible though, just the routing is a bit mad). Probably some of the issues could be adressed by using EnergyXT.
- Nothing like "warp" or "liquid" audio. Again, it all depends on whether you need it.
- No easy MIDI assignment of plugin parameters. But then, SX completely fails with that too, unless you
want to use the bloated generic remote control.
- No PDC on busses. Defenitely a shortcoming if you want to use things such as DSP cards and FX like SIR on busses.

As you can see, the shortcomings are mostly on the audio treating side of things. Still the engine is more efficient than anything else I tried yet.
And MIDI-wise it's almost unbeatable.
In addition, considering you can get a fully authorized version, you'll get a highly efficient sampler, a whole bunch of great sounding other virtual instruments (the EVD6 and EVB3 are unbeatable and the ES2 is still one of the best sounding VAs), a vast array of very useful effects (OK, you won't need a compressor like Logics... also there's better EQs and reverbs for sure) and a beautifully looking (IMO at least), uncluttered and user configurable mixer.

For me, the shortcomings on the audio side of things still don't weigh as much as the advances regarding a lot of other features. And I can't see anything else coming even remotely close so far. It's actually making me wonder... I thought Cubase had become more mature between VST 3.x and SX (which was the period I left out in my updates, due to Logic heaven), but actually the opposite is the case. It's less intuitive and they even left out some rather important features (such as audio to MIDI) which were existing (and working fine) in older versions.

that's some very usefull info Sascha.. many thanks for that .. The cons indeed don't really apply to me so I think I'm going to give it a shot as an alternative.. I just hope I don't end up buying a Mac

[ericj23]

all pretty much true

but the lack of midi fx is the real killer - and I dont just mean if can't host mfx it does not allow for plug-ins to send midi so no nice freeware midi plugs either - ok there is a laughable arpeggiator in logic and i think there is a basic chorder but these are nowhere near as good as the ones in sonar or particularly sx

and a great sx feature is that you can make amazing midi presets using the transformer and then apply shortcuts to them - so if you find yourself doing the same thing a lot design your own and give it a shortcut

Ok you can get round all this losses in logic by using energyxt but if you are into complex midi routing you will end up with everything within the sequencer within the sequencer - which is hardly the point

PS according to a post on cubase.net (from a mod) the next version of sx will include a velocity tool

PPS the drum map in logic is awful too

[spaceman]

but using something like ERA wouldn't be a problem I guess?

[Sascha Franck]

Oh, I should add: No dual CPU support with Logic. So that'll be a serious performance drawback if you have such a machine.
On the other hand, while talking about dual items: Dual monitor support is the best you can find. Actually even better than what you get with the latest Mac version.

And, one thing that I simply love: If you deal with plugins and open their GUIs, by default the GUI will replace the one of the previously shown plugin, which is effectively avoiding screen clutter. I almost forgot about the importance of this one until I started working in SX a bit more - you'll permanently find yourself drowning in plugin windows. Minor thing, but quite with some impact on the eyes.

[ericj23]

era will not work in logic - logic 5.51 does not allow plugins to send midi to anything - so you would have to use it in ext

[spaceman]

Oh, I should add: No dual CPU support with Logic. So that'll be a serious performance drawback if you have such a machine.
On the other hand, while talking about dual items: Dual monitor support is the best you can find. Actually even better than what you get with the latest Mac version.

And, one thing that I simply love: If you deal with plugins and open their GUIs, by default the GUI will replace the one of the previously shown plugin, which is effectively avoiding screen clutter. I almost forgot about the importance of this one until I started working in SX a bit more - you'll permanently find yourself drowning in plugin windows. Minor thing, but quite with some impact on the eyes.

cool, because that usually pisses me off quite quickly.. the continues clicking to close windows is a real creativity killer.. good to know

[Sascha Franck]

but the lack of midi fx is the real killer - and I dont just mean if can't host mfx it does not allow for plug-ins to send midi so no nice freeware midi plugs either - ok there is a laughable arpeggiator in logic and i think there is a basic chorder but these are nowhere near as good as the ones in sonar or particularly sx

I have to agree on that one.
But then, I rarely use MIDI FX. Hmmm... mabe I would, if Logic would support them. I'm not working as much in SX as to get used to them and their advances.

Regarding plugin MIDI output which could be used by another track: Not sure whether this is possible with a loopback device. In case the plugin supports adressing MIDI outs straight, it should be. But admittedly, I never tried this at all.

PS according to a post on cubase.net (from a mod) the next version of sx will include a velocity tool

Oh, that's great news. It's another thing I miss a lot.

PPS the drum map in logic is awful too

Well, at a first glance, Cubase's drum editor is easier to get used to, but once you got the hang of it, Logic's HyperEdit is even more powerful. At least IMO. YMMV pretty much on that.

[spaceman]

era will not work in logic - logic 5.51 does not allow plugins to send midi to anything - so you would have to use it in ext

cool, that's fine

[griels]

Oh my... None of the drum sequencing plugins are comparable to the Cubase or Logic MIDI editors.. Too rigid.. OK, you might have offsets and retrig but it's not the same as having arbitrary note placement. Try programming triplet flam rolls in it and you'll see what I mean.

However from what I gathered Logic hyperedit trumped them all in terms of drum editing. To suggest using a drum sequencing plugin in its place seems bizarre

I for one would love to see a decent drum sequencer plugin with midi output. One that allowed arbitrary note placement, but still had the convenience of grid style note toggling. It's one of the major things that keeps me locked into Cubase as opposed to Tracktion or EnergyXT etc.

[Sascha Franck]

You'll love Guru then, griels!
Of course it's not a "programming only" sort of plugin...

[griels]

You'll love Guru then, griels!
Of course it's not a "programming only" sort of plugin...

Aye, a little birdie tells me it's a big leap forward for sure...

[ericj23]

so is guru the beat slicer/maker that finally gets it all right

phatmatik was close but its filters/fx were rubbish and it's total lack of a sequencer was also a problem