KVR Audio

_patch · Post by **_patch** » Fri May 20, 2005 7:01 pm

Lunch Money wrote:Nah, that's fine. Because this forum is such a valuable resource to me, I sometimes forget that it might be just as easy to Google for information. Thanks for at least trying. I'll do a search.

I haven't done a direct A/B the way you've described, so I should give that a go.

...or do a shortcut: just buy Guitar-Rig and have fun!

Lawnmower Of The Damned · Fri May 20, 2005 8:01 pm

Or buy Guitar Rig and kick yourself for having spent way too much money on a 4 model amp sim.

$450 gets you Guitar Rig with 4 models, none of which can create a decent distorted sound without the addition of distortion pedals (Which is a completely different sound than amp distortion).

$400 gets you a Pod XT fully loaded with 72 amp models and dozens of effects. Oh, and the Pod XT has MUCH better distortion than Guitar Rig. Even if distortion isn't your thing there's still tons of goodies in a Pod XT you just won't find in Guitar Rig.

By purchasing Guitar Rig you are sending the message to NI and friends that it's okay to charge absurd amounts of money for second rate amp sims with few features. Prices on VST effects have been getting crazy lately. $400 reverbs, $450 amp sims... you can buy dedicated hardware with (In many, but not all cases) much better sound at these prices.

I know that there are many here who think it's blasphemy to even speak of hardware on KVR, but I don't care. It doesn't matter if it's hardware or software, it's the sound that matters. And Guitar Rig is a big fat loser on sound, features and price.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:08 pm

I'm afaid I have to agree with the lawnmower.
I still use my Boss GT-5 for a lot of stuff (if anybody wants, I could record some shit), and just recently I've seen it for 100.- Euros in mint condition.
And yeah, it's got some nice features, such as a global reverb level, global speaker simulation on/off, global hi/lo EQ - so your patches will work in more than just one setup. f**k POD and VAmp for that.

AndrewSimon · Post by **AndrewSimon** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:10 pm

It's quite simple.
Impedance load effects your guitar pickup response.
And in quite a big way.
A guitar that sounds crisp with nice highs in a Hi-Z
input can sound muffled and bassy in a Low-Z input.

Lawnmower Of The Damned · Fri May 20, 2005 8:20 pm

Sascha Franck wrote:I'm afaid I have to agree with the lawnmower.
I still use my Boss GT-5 for a lot of stuff (if anybody wants, I could record some shit), and just recently I've seen it for 100.- Euros in mint condition.
And yeah, it's got some nice features, such as a global reverb level, global speaker simulation on/off, global hi/lo EQ - so your patches will work in more than just one setup. f**k POD and VAmp for that.

My Vetta has all that stuff. Global reverb, hi and low EQ are all right next to the master volume knob. I don't have a global cab switch, but I can easily save my patches with them off or on.

The Pod XT Live actually has some very nice features for playing through various cabs as well. Both the Pod and GT series are very good choices that are less expensive, have more features and more amp models.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:28 pm

Hm, that's sounding reasonable, Lawnmower. I've been trying H&Ks ZenTera once, and while I've been impressed by the sound, the utility menu (or lack of it) really put me off.

Midiworks · Post by **Midiworks** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:49 pm

_patch · Post by **_patch** » Fri May 20, 2005 9:36 pm

Lawnmower Of The Damned wrote:Guitar Rig is a big fat loser on sound, features and price.

I can understand, that a Vetta-Owner, who has spend 2k Euros for a seven jear old Modelling-Technique has to 'argument' like this.

I ebayed my PODxt after I bought Guitar-Rig and I've don't missed it a second!

I'm still curious about new sims like Midiworks amp, the next Steinberg / Hughes&Kettner ampsim ('Warp2' ..???), IK-Amplitube2, the next Line6 sim (Hard- or Software) or maybe even Greenmachine3, GuitarSuite2 and so on.

Until new ampsims are comming for a comparison and test, I'm happy with my Guitar-Rig 1.2 and I'm hoping NI is realising more amps and other components soon - as free updates - to stay a Guitar-Rig user and don't have to switch to another ampsim.

Cya all later,
_patch

darcyb62 · Post by **darcyb62** » Fri May 20, 2005 9:39 pm

What I don't understand... If an amp sim (any amp sim) works for the perosn using in the way the want to use it. What difference does it make? What sounds good for one person doesn't have to sound good for everyone else does it?

Midiworks · Post by **Midiworks** » Fri May 20, 2005 10:50 pm

I think its time to hear what its all about.

NI Combos US$199 VS Guitar Suite US$0 (plus a 50-75% CPU saving)

Let your ears decide.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/combs_music.htm

The first take is always the DRY recording !
Then followed by the amped version.

AcBox Combo VS GSuite
is comming a bit later.

NinjaShredder · Post by **NinjaShredder** » Fri May 20, 2005 10:58 pm

Here is a quick n dirty explanation for Hi-Z inputs:

A high impedance input to the mixer will not allow much current to flow, while still giving a decent voltage signal level.
Now then, a guitar pickup cannot supply much current, as it is only getting the signal from the vibration of strings. Its unfair to ask the pickup to drive normal line level devices. Poor thing.

But if you do plug it into a lower impedance input/ normal line level input, more current will flow, which "works the pickups harder" - More energy is lost to the internal resistance of the pickups - this is the loading effect. The results in the loss of high frequencies.

So even if you have a decent signal level (voltage), the signal has already been altered. This will make all your software guitar distortions sound crap compared to hardware ones.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Fri May 20, 2005 11:15 pm

Cool, cheers for that. I get it now.

Regarding Rig vs. Pod, I'd definitely still take the Pod. The technology isn't 7 years old, since it HAS been updated (quite recently, too, only maybe a month before Guitar Rig?). I'd take my GDI21 over Guitar Rig so far. I wouldn't pay $450 when my $35 'pedal' is making the exact same (maybe better, I can't say until I listen hard and long) sounds and has the benefits of hardware (and only one drawback, which is easily compensated for with a splitter).

Tubeman · Post by **Tubeman** » Sat May 21, 2005 12:37 am

_patch wrote:You played a real Tube-Amp (Plexi) and recommend Guitar-Suite instead of NI Combos?!? Sorry Midiworks, but all the belief in your 'Amp' (whenever it will be released...) is gone now.

Guitar-Suite is cool, because it's free, but to say it's Amps are more original in sound, reaction and feel than NI-Combos or the amps of Guitar Rig are (don't tried out the Combo-Demo yet), is just ridiculous!

I have to agree with Midiworks. Having played quite a few Marshalls the Guitar-Suite sounds most realistic. Even though it simulates JCM-900 it can get JMP/800's sounds way better than Guitar Rig/Combos. GR just isn't there, it sounds very distant and thin to my ears. Like 10W practice amp cranked and miked with a crappy mic. Nothing like old Marshall miked. Use your ears not eyes. Other good Marshall sims are Warp and Saro.

Tubeman · Post by **Tubeman** » Sat May 21, 2005 12:50 am

Pädy wrote:1. Could people please shut the f**k up about sound quality if they don't even know what a Hi-Z input is and what using a normal mixer channel does to your guitar sound.

Actually the difference between Hi- and Lo-Z inputs isn't so big when using guitars, especially with higain sounds. I can get quite a good sound just plugging to line in of my soundcard using Guitar-Suite. It's definitely nothing that will explain the poor distortion sound of Guitar rig.

In fact many tube amps form a lowpass filter in their input that has a cutoff frequency something like 10kHz.

Spiggy · Post by **Spiggy** » Sat May 21, 2005 2:13 am

Lawnmower Of The Damned wrote:Or buy Guitar Rig and kick yourself for having spent way too much money on a 4 model amp sim.

$450 gets you Guitar Rig with 4 models, none of which can create a decent distorted sound without the addition of distortion pedals (Which is a completely different sound than amp distortion).

$400 gets you a Pod XT fully loaded with 72 amp models and dozens of effects. Oh, and the Pod XT has MUCH better distortion than Guitar Rig. Even if distortion isn't your thing there's still tons of goodies in a Pod XT you just won't find in Guitar Rig.

By purchasing Guitar Rig you are sending the message to NI and friends that it's okay to charge absurd amounts of money for second rate amp sims with few features. Prices on VST effects have been getting crazy lately. $400 reverbs, $450 amp sims... you can buy dedicated hardware with (In many, but not all cases) much better sound at these prices.

I know that there are many here who think it's blasphemy to even speak of hardware on KVR, but I don't care. It doesn't matter if it's hardware or software, it's the sound that matters. And Guitar Rig is a big fat loser on sound, features and price.

GR does however do some pretty lovely clean sounds and the cab simulation is reasonably developed. However the actual amp modelling side of things, ie: pre-amp, power amp, IMHO still isn't so hot beyond more than a hint of grit. Mildly overdriven GR actually does quite well - but as soon as you let rip with the gain...

I'm sure, as you mentioned earlier in the thread, just as there have been updates for the POD their will be updates for GR and these combos. Just that personally I think NI should've refined the simulation/tech rather than heading for product spin offs quite so soon.

NI Guitar Combos - I'm intrigued