Cubas vs FL Studio

[Seus Hawkins]

Yes, I just thought about that too while reading nihilist's post. (time signature)

[Hink]

Well now, up until two weeks ago I was using FL exclusively to sequence tracks. Unfortunately, I unintentionally decided to make my windows installation commit seppuku, and was left with having to reformat, losing all my previous songs and samples -- let this be a lesson: Back up EVERYTHING, FREQUENTLY.

Anyways, I decided that since I've reformatted, this would be a good time to bite the bullet and try the much-heralded Cubase on a clean slate. After getting Cubase and some tutorial videos, I've come up to speed rather quickly with Cubase. To put it simply, I am very pleased with it, and the workflow it has.

First of all, Cubase and FL are vastly different applications, and have completely, utterly different workflows to eachother. They're not even on the same planet, really, when it comes to how they approach things. Totally alien enviroments to one another. Cubase is a sequencer first and foremost; recording, arranging and editing midi and audio is its major focus, with less of a concentration on using it for composition. FL Studio, on the other hand, is built for making songs quickly, with a very stripped down "virtual studio" interface, focused on building things out of individual samples and patterns.

Now, I'd like to point out right here that no one app is "better" than another, and they're both capable of making prettymuch the same song, although doing things in one program or the other can be much easier or much more difficult.

Here are the things that FL has going for it.

Patterns - By far the biggest influence on the FL workflow, everything is seperated into patterns, which can be arranged however you like in the playlist window. Their advantage is that they can be arranged and rearranged very easily.

Step Sequencer - Makes it very easy to program drumloops, and probably the second biggest influence on FL workflow.

Piano Roll - FL Studio has, hands down, the most intuitive, easy to use and best designed piano roll ever created. Every other piano roll I've ever used feels clunky compared to its perfection.

And with Cubase:

Flexibility - Cubase has a very well developed and sophisticated routing system, extremely sophisticated midi editing, great support for external devices, tons of tiny little features... in short, its a bleeding monster, and it handles even fairly esoteric functions in a logical way.

Time Signature - My biggest problem with FL was that it could only do 4/4. Technically, you can fool around with undersized and oversized patterns, but it's not very pretty or manageble. Cubase is a much better option if you're producing music that's going to be in many time signatures.

Recording - What SX is designed for. Recording audio in Cubase is much more sophisticated than FL, with things like multiple takes, track muting, etc. If you're recording alot of live instruments, Cubase has a distinct advantage to FL.

Unfortunatly, the programs are so different that FL users like myself will scream and swear at its ass-backwardsness while we attempt to learn Cubase. The plugins and effects that come with both programs are only servicable, and will need to be replaced with others if you want decent sound. And forget about trying to sit down and "figure out" Cubase. A tutorial and manual are essential for this monolithic program. FL has an instant gratification that Cubase just can't compete with.

To be perfectly honest, a program is only going to be as good as the time you invest in it, but maybe this will give you a general idea of how your musical goals will match up to the workflow of the two programs. The migration to Cubase from FL is a pretty big paradigm shift, but I've found it very rewarding, so don't let it intimidate you -- and remember, you can always use FL as a VST inside of Cubase and get the best of both worlds.

BTW I just wan to say tha truth be known if you get AA1.5 you have all the benfits of both, with less duplicate functions and more features.

I wont use FL audio recording for much either, actually for me it's for if I write a midi file and want to record one of my hardware synths. However I use AA as my multti-tracker (guitar and vox mainly) just for some of the things you mentioned. The bonus AA can also be the wav editor in Fl and of course FL will rewire to AA...one big happy family and I believe at a total cost of 450 bux for the both it's not all that bad...

[Rellik]

Step Sequencer - Makes it very easy to program drumloops, and probably the second biggest influence on FL workflow.

useless, goood for beginners, I wish they would remove it the PR is fine.

How could you say the Step Sequencer is useless?!

It's infinitely great! If you were going to use the Piano Roll to program drums, then you would have to go between separate piano rolls to program for each sample - whereas with the Step Sequencer, you have all the samples and all the sixteenth notes arrayed out so that you can program quickly and easily. Once you have a good drum-track going, THAT's when you render out and import into the Fruity Slicer, where you use the piano roll for more in-depth editing.

If there were no step sequencer, you would have to use drum samplers ALL the time, and that would suck. They're nice for acoustic drums, but for electronic drums, quite frankly trying to map them each to a key is a terribly unintuitive way to work, and a vastly slower one!

[Hink]

Step Sequencer - Makes it very easy to program drumloops, and probably the second biggest influence on FL workflow.

useless, goood for beginners, I wish they would remove it the PR is fine.

How could you say the Step Sequencer is useless?!

It's infinitely great! If you were going to use the Piano Roll to program drums, then you would have to go between separate piano rolls to program for each sample - whereas with the Step Sequencer, you have all the samples and all the sixteenth notes arrayed out so that you can program quickly and easily. Once you have a good drum-track going, THAT's when you render out and import into the Fruity Slicer, where you use the piano roll for more in-depth editing.

If there were no step sequencer, you would have to use drum samplers ALL the time, and that would suck. They're nice for acoustic drums, but for electronic drums, quite frankly trying to map them each to a key is a terribly unintuitive way to work, and a vastly slower one!

1. layers
2. fpc
3 none of those matter, I use vsampler with dfh, my drums are on one roll mapped my way...if you think you need to have one drum sample per channel then you need to see the benefits of fpc or layers. Fpc is better as it multi-velocity, much better and on one channel thus one roll.

Add in a sampler like vsampler with mutiple outs you have midi outs for each channel, all the drums on one channel..with amazing control, not only multi-velocity, but far beyond...plus it plays all soundfonts.

The step sequencer is good for beginners, but having 16 channels for drums each with one sample as opposed 16 drum sounds each with multiple samples and it's on own channel like fpc is, can you please explain how the step sequencer is easier, better or even useful? If it is'n't multi samples per instrument you can us a yayer, again all your drum channels you have now stacked up on one channel, how is that not easier or better...so again I say I have no use for the SS except to quickly access my dxi's or vst's...

[Rellik]

Multi-samplers like VSampler or FPC are way overkill for simply triggering samplers, imho - I don't need velocity layers, I'll just trigger a different sample when I want. Layers are a slightly better solution - they're not so bad, but I prefer working with the step sequencer. The step sequencer has non-destructive shuffle quantization - when the piano roll gets that, that'll be awesome.

The problem with using Layers is that you can't change around the order of it easily. If you have a drum-track programmed and you want to add more samples, if you're using a Layer, you have to have the new samples be mapped to higher notes. It becomes one big jumble of parts. I prefer to have my samples mapped by sections, like this:

BD1
BD2
SD1
SD2
SD3
SD4
SD5
HH1
HH2
HH3
HH4

If I want to add samples anywhere, I can. Simple - it's all arrayed out graphically, I can see the interplay of the different hi-hat samples together, I can see the interplay of the snares, and I can see the interplay of the whole thing together. I can do this easily only with the step sequencer. It's all about the workflow - it's simply simpler and more orderly to use the step sequencer. I could use 3 layers, but then I would have to go between the different layers to get an idea of what's going on, rather than everything being RIGHT THERE, visible and editable. And that's why it's better! Understand?

I see your point for acoustic drums, or if you don't really want to experiment with layering your own samples and processing them in different groups, to use multisamples/multisamplers. But for all other manner of percussion that does not intend to emulate real instruments in response to velocity, and if you like to mix in and layer samples on the fly for yourself, and process them into the mixer, that's what the step sequencer is for, and it does it really well!

[Hink]

Multi-samplers like VSampler or FPC are way overkill for simply triggering samplers, imho - I don't need velocity layers, I'll just trigger a different sample when I want. Layers are a slightly better solution - they're not so bad, but I prefer working with the step sequencer. The step sequencer has non-destructive shuffle quantization - when the piano roll gets that, that'll be awesome.

The problem with using Layers is that you can't change around the order of it easily. If you have a drum-track programmed and you want to add more samples, if you're using a Layer, you have to have the new samples be mapped to higher notes. It becomes one big jumble of parts. I prefer to have my samples mapped by sections, like this:

BD1
BD2
SD1
SD2
SD3
SD4
SD5
HH1
HH2
HH3
HH4

If I want to add samples anywhere, I can. Simple - it's all arrayed out graphically, I can see the interplay of the different hi-hat samples together, I can see the interplay of the snares, and I can see the interplay of the whole thing together. I can do this easily only with the step sequencer. It's all about the workflow - it's simply simpler and more orderly to use the step sequencer. I could use 3 layers, but then I would have to go between the different layers to get an idea of what's going on, rather than everything being RIGHT THERE, visible and editable. And that's why it's better! Understand?

well I guess if that works for you cool...but do you have any idea what cool features are waiting in the piano roll...no offense, but if your music is so static that the limeted steps are good for you then I understand. As for anything though a lot can be said for making the best of what you have, you are not my friend. I use a lot of syncopations and such...the step sequencer only lets you go so far. I have a problem with each step being the same length in a song. Then of course in the piano roll are tools that are great, especially for drums. You can believe your way is a better work flow, but I bet if you started using the features available to you, you wouldn't be sorry and your workflow....but hey it's your workflow and your music

Multi-samplers like VSampler or FPC are way overkill for simply triggering samplers, imho - I don't need velocity layers, I'll just trigger a different sample when I want.

I suggest you read up, you appear to have no clue about the benefits of multi-velocity. Sorry but a drum hit with different velocities not only is quieter but has a toatlly different tone. One velocity just doesn't cut it, if you were to map out all my samples you have several hundred channels just for drums, it's not a whim.

I have no doubt oneday you'll see it as it is...

[Rellik]

I do see it as it is. I know all about multi-sampling and multi-velocity. I know about syncopation, I know how much more there can be to a drum-track than 16 steps.

Please don't just gloss over my post. I'm not talking about acoustic drumsamples - for those, multi-velocity layers are essential. I know exactly what I'm talking about - don't be so condescending.

[The Chase]

Hink, Rellik, you guys are agreeing with eachother and saying the same thing!

you both have made the point that the PR in FL can do anything, and that the step sequencer is perfect for when you just want to do something basic (I.E., throwing a 909 kick on the quarter note places, 1,5,9,13).

[Armadillo]

But Hink you are probably doing rock/blues/jazz ie. acoustic where it's more important that there is some "groove" ie. shuffle and changes in velocity on the different hits through out the song.
But a 4 bar rock loop is rather simple compared to some electronic styles like IDM, breakbeat and Drum n' bass where you might use 12-15 different drum sounds within those 4 bars. Rock (and jazz/blues etc.) usually just has a kick, snare, hihat and crash. And perhaps a tom.

The step sequencer in FL studio makes that sort of complexity a lot easier. A piano roll sucks for drum programming when it comes to complex electronic genres.

[Hink]

I do see it as it is. I know all about multi-sampling and multi-velocity. I know about syncopation, I know how much more there can be to a drum-track than 16 steps.

Please don't just gloss over my post. I'm not talking about acoustic drumsamples - for those, multi-velocity layers are essential. I know exactly what I'm talking about - don't be so condescending.

I'm sorry if I appeared to be condescending, I didn't mean to be. I just do not see any difference in workflow especially with fpc that is part of FL, I do not see how that is overkill...I don't care what kind of music you're producing. You open fpc and every drum is named, and if you want to save the drum file as a midi file you can in the piano roll. The step sequencer wont map to GM...my only point was I do not see a purpose for it. I can tell you right now I'm not alone on this.

Let me ask you one question, and perhaps it wont matter for you but it is essential for me. When you hit your hat open then go to a groove with it closed how to you cut off the open hat sound when the closed hat starts? This one reason in my book is why not to do it in the SS (I use to I even made myself a nice template with drum sounds I liked).

That's why I ask why is it overkill? For me it isn't overkill, it's what my music deserves. For me because I like dfh and Vsampler they open in my start up template. I also have bass samples in vsampler and B4 always opens with it's midi's and a dashboard. I have a bunch of midi outs going to vsampler and five audio outputs (sent to channels 17-21 in the mixer) 4 for drums (kicks, snare, hats/cym and toms) and one for bass. The drums each have crunchessor on them and pristine light as send in FL so all 4 drum tracks run through it.

Sure that sounds like overkill at first, but think about it, I set up the template and now when I open FL (takes about 30 seconds to open) I go right to the drums piano roll and I'm used to it. I can drag straight beat score on it, or any other score I want or start from scratch. No more set-up with vsampler is needed it fires up already. So the work flow from there is the same or faster with better sound coming out of the otherside..win/win..no?

[Hink]

But Hink you are probably doing rock/blues/jazz ie. acoustic where it's more important that there is some "groove" ie. shuffle and changes in velocity on the different hits through out the song.
But a 4 bar rock loop is rather simple compared to some electronic styles like IDM, breakbeat and Drum n' bass where you might use 12-15 different drum sounds within those 4 bars. Rock (and jazz/blues etc.) usually just has a kick, snare, hihat and crash. And perhaps a tom.

The step sequencer in FL studio makes that sort of complexity a lot easier. A piano roll sucks for drum programming when it comes to complex electronic genres.

I have my drums mapped to 62 keys in vsampler, of those some have as many as 16 drum samples on them....that's just a few more then 12-16 drum sounds and precicely the reason for fpc's development...16 pads that you can assign many different sounds to different velocities. Seeing how electronic music is the most common produced by FL and the fact fpc was one of the big things of the last upgrade I have to assume that gol and jmc disagree with you, not to mention those who are pumped about fpc...again the majority being electronic...I'm the fish out of water..

[Rellik]

Let me ask you one question, and perhaps it wont matter for you but it is essential for me. When you hit your hat open then go to a groove with it closed how to you cut off the open hat sound when the closed hat starts? This one reason in my book is why not to do it in the SS (I use to I even made myself a nice template with drum sounds I liked).

Well, if I want to do that, I generally set one sample to cut off the other.

But I don't even always use open hi-hats! I don't have any one "kit" that I like to use for drums - I have my drum library of freeware one-shots collected from the internet, and I simply scroll through the snares or the kicks or the hats and the various sub-divisions I've set up, and if I like what I hear, I drag it onto the step sequencer. And then I build my pattern - the focus is more on tone than on complexity of groove. As I build my pattern, I continue to add and process and program the samples.

That's why I keep bringing up acoustic drumkit style drums - if you're programming acoustic drumkit drums, then it's all well and good to have it all set up nicely as a kit with velocity layers and all. Go crazy! For electronic or non-acoustic drum programming, a more flexible approach is more suitable. I wouldn't want to have to open fpc or any drum sampler and start mapping like crazy every time I want to start a drumtrack.

But that's nothing I haven't said before - so I still don't really understand your point, I guess.

About the 12-15 different drum sounds vs. the 62x16 drum sounds: maybe I'm confused, but why is that relevant? Also, out of curiosity, what do you have mapped to all those 62 keys?

[ravasb]

I have used both Cubase and FL Studio for a while. Both sound great. Both are more than capable of making excellent music once you get used to them. Good mastering is really the key, and you can do that fine with both, even though both really need external plug-ins.

I like the score editor in cubase, and I think it is easier to record audio in it, but once you figure out FL that really is not an issue.

The downsides of cubase are its dongle, which takes up a usb port, the poor customer service from Steinberg, and the incredible expense of upgrading every couple of years.

FL is much less money, and the updates are free. Image line is a much friendlier company and provides a useful forum on their website. They do not have surround sound as of yet, but I imagine they will eventually.

A feature of FL that I really like is that you can use it as a vst in another host, like Live or even Energy xt. I like it better that rewiring to the host.

The step sequencer in FL is very good for working up some preliminary beats for the song, but it can also be used in a sophisticated why by making a larger number of parts and variations with individual instruments and sequencing them. The problem is that it is hard to do anything beside 4/4 step sequencing, but there are not too many programs that are good at that.

Finally, FL has a very clever way of inputting chords and basic arpeggios which is great for those of us who are not great keyboard players. The piano roll in general is a bit easier to use.

If I had a ton of money I would probably keep up with Cubase, and buy FL, too, but since I do not, I am really happy with FL.

[Hink]

okay look at it this way, you got one sound and one sample usually. Now the way mine are mapped some drums are up to 16 samples. A good example is one of the snares. If I strike it hard (or harder) it'll be the sound of a heavy snare. If I lower the velocity the volume doesn't change but instead it plays a sample that is the stick anchored on the snare hand striking the rim.

Now in your case with electronic drums, say you use ten different kick sounds, so you use ten different channels which I understand, now imagine if you had those ten kicks on one key and could change the instrument by velocity with out the volume changing. Of course the volume will increase or decrease for that instrument depending on the size of it's velocity zone and where the note occurs in that sample. So just by adjusting velocity you could change out and have different sounds on the same note.

For me the velocity zones are mapped by dfh, and you have to put each instrument to what key you want. Toms and snare both have right and left hand keys, there is many snares including without the spring, I have several crashes, splashes and two rides with a ride crash...I also took the higher tom samples and copied them and raised the pitch so I have six left and right handed toms and two left and right floor toms, 2 kicks, 6 keys with hats (that hats are very expressive) 2 different left and right snare combos, 5 non snare options (no spring), 8 cymbals 2 of which are ride with three options each...crash, bell and normal. Adjusting is fun and easy..

I also have some nice slap bass samples, same thing, the velocity chooses the sample, from pop, to click to slap to mute. So think about it, you lat out the patttern and choose where the slap is, where the click is ect, but it's in the same roll as the bass, you just adjust it by velocity...really cool...

[Ras Upsettah I]

AFAIK music can be done even with a match box.
I like FL , i´m a registered user, i think it´s the best deal available , but i get my kicks on SX .

In Brazil, music IS made with a match box!

Ras.