KVR Audio

jtxx000 · Post by **jtxx000** » Tue May 31, 2005 11:37 pm

what if you take a commercial IR library and then capture an IR from an instance of SIR that has the commercial IR loaded then is the IR you captured yours? can you distribute it legally?

dburgan · Post by **dburgan** » Tue May 31, 2005 11:40 pm

jtxx000 wrote:what if you take a commercial IR library and then capture an IR from an instance of SIR that has the commercial IR loaded then is the IR you captured yours? can you distribute it legally?

Hahahaha - actually not according to my license agreement.

It says you can distribute anything you make using the IRs so long as they are materially different from the IR itself.

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:04 pm

One day soon, there will actually be a choice of useable native reverbs, which means convolution will be a moot point anyway. I seriously think convolution has a limited shelf life even though at present it's the best solution outside of h/w. That won't always be so.

I must admit to a little guilt over convolution reverbs...let's be honest, the only reason the vast majority of us use it is so that we don't have to buy an expensive TC or Lexicon. Most of the other stuff can be done with other s/w FX...it's only because Lexicon etc are so far ahead of the field in reverb that convolution became popular. If it went to courts and all of the impulses of Lexicon PCM91s and 960s and TC M6000s and Eventide4000s suddenly became illegal...then convolution would (legally) die a death also. The market for other stuff would be so small as to make it unviable.

All of you who say you don't care about the h/w....how many impulses of Lexicons, Eventides and TCs have you got compared to other impulses? ... honestly now

And the other use for convolution is for real space reverbs...so how many of us have actually reached into our pockets to buy a set of commercial reverb impulses? I know I haven't, and I'm not likely to.

herodotus · Post by **herodotus** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:16 pm

kritikon wrote:One day soon, there will actually be a choice of useable native reverbs, which means convolution will be a moot point anyway. I seriously think convolution has a limited shelf life even though at present it's the best solution outside of h/w. That won't always be so.

I must admit to a little guilt over convolution reverbs...let's be honest, the only reason the vast majority of us use it is so that we don't have to buy an expensive TC or Lexicon. Most of the other stuff can be done with other s/w FX...it's only because Lexicon etc are so far ahead of the field in reverb that convolution became popular. If it went to courts and all of the impulses of Lexicon PCM91s and 960s and TC M6000s and Eventide4000s suddenly became illegal...then convolution would (legally) die a death also. The market for other stuff would be so small as to make it unviable.

All of you who say you don't care about the h/w....how many impulses of Lexicons, Eventides and TCs have you got compared to other impulses? ... honestly now

And the other use for convolution is for real space reverbs...so how many of us have actually reached into our pockets to buy a set of commercial reverb impulses? I know I haven't, and I'm not likely to.

Actually, the only impulses I use are made by myself from old records.

The plate reverbs that they used back in the late 50's just plain rocked.

deleted · Post by **deleted** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:27 pm

DELETED

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:36 pm

dburgan wrote:It says you can distribute anything you make using the IRs so long as they are materially different from the IR itself.

Technically, resampling the IR through SIR or some other convolution reverb/processor IS something made FROM the original IR - even though it may sound the same.

In effect, your IR's are not yours at all once someone buys them.

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:39 pm

Frippertronix wrote:To me, it's not that far removed from sampling a piece of music and using it in another song (a la past greats like MC Hammer).

I don't think it's anywhere even close to that. It's more like using a program that analyzes the FFT signature of a commercial song and applying that signature to your own work. The end result has nothing to do with the original work, 'cause it depends so much on the input signal.

Manufacturers of hardware reverbs and other gear can patent the electronics of their machines, not the frequency responses they produce. So in my mind there's absolutely nothing proprietary about the IR coming off a bit of gear.

Feeling guilty about using IR's that come from hardware devices is kind of like feeling guilty that you didn't rent the church or cathedral from which an acoustic IR was derived.

EtiennedeV · Post by **EtiennedeV** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:41 pm

Hi,
Just a short precision (yes, I know it has nothing to do with IRs) regarding the Eiffel Tower. In fact, it is legal to take pictures of it, night & day. Though, the 'enlightment' is considered as 'oeuvre d'art' (masterpiece) and protected as such. You have to ask for permission and to pay royalties to the artist (and not to France) if you make a commercial use of your picture.
So please, do not consider it so silly. Sure, we always look like we're acting strangely, but sometimes, it makes sense

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:43 pm

kritikon wrote:...let's be honest, the only reason the vast majority of us use it is so that we don't have to buy an expensive TC or Lexicon...

No, let's really be honest, most of us use it because it's there. If it wasn't available 98% of us would still not rush out and plop down thousands for a hardware reverb unit. Personally, I haven't found IRs from hardware to be all that much better than some of the software reverbs available. I end up using way more GlaceVerb than SIR reverbs in my work.

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:34 pm

No, let's really be honest, most of us use it because it's there

Nope, strongly disagree. We use it because it's there and you can make it sound just like a Lexicon. If it couldn't sound like a Lexicon or TC or Eventide, most of us would pass it by.

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:25 pm

kritikon wrote:
No, let's really be honest, most of us use it because it's there
Nope, strongly disagree. We use it because it's there and you can make it sound just like a Lexicon.

But if free IRs from Lexicons were not available, would you shell out the cash for a real one . . . assuming you have no more free resources than you do now?

I wouldn't, can't justify it. Besides . . . How do I know it sounds "just like a Lexicon" if I've never had the cash available to buy a real Lexicon?

**edit** And if they DO sound EXACTLY like Lexicons and TC's then by all rights the hardware versions will go away to be replaced by convolution software. Anyway, that's a moot point . . . there's still no need to feel guilty about using IRs from hardware if it does what you want and doesn't violate patent laws.

dburgan · Post by **dburgan** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:28 pm

Andrew Vernon wrote:
dburgan wrote:It says you can distribute anything you make using the IRs so long as they are materially different from the IR itself.
Technically, resampling the IR through SIR or some other convolution reverb/processor IS something made FROM the original IR - even though it may sound the same.

In effect, your IR's are not yours at all once someone buys them.

Ahhh but that's where the word 'materially' kicks in.

It may be different at a binary level but if it sounds the same then it is not materially different.

Arrrghk I sound like a lawyer ....

dburgan · Post by **dburgan** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:33 pm

kritikon wrote:If it went to courts and all of the impulses of Lexicon PCM91s and 960s and TC M6000s and Eventide4000s suddenly became illegal...then convolution would (legally) die a death also. The market for other stuff would be so small as to make it unviable.

Oh I dunno about that ... it'll impact the market to be sure, but all commercial convolution reverbs include very usable and large IR libraries of their own. In the case of some convolution engines (Altiverb, for example), it's actually quite a hassle to import external IRs. Clearly they intend for users to primarily use the bundled IRs, not stuff downloaded from Noisevault.

Besides, convolution is waaay more than reverb. Anything that does modeling probably has an element of convolution to it (e.g. Guitar Rig, etc.) And of course, there's always all the fun you can have when you use convolution as a *cough* generic spectral filtering device ...

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:40 pm

Let's say I feel as guilty as for using drum samples (individual hits) from a (still on the market) drumset being played by a (still alive) drummer.

emdot_ambient · Post by **emdot_ambient** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:23 pm

Sascha Franck wrote:Let's say I feel as guilty as for using drum samples (individual hits) from a (still on the market) drumset being played by a (still alive) drummer.

You bastard.

Your feelings on "impulse ethics"