Mr. Squids tell all

[Squids]

Symphony Strings is very good. It has been the most popular Expansion Tank in the series without question. But, it covers a certain sound. There are things I like about different strings from different sources. But, sounds are to people's tastes and also how they are played makes a big difference. For the most part I think that this library is very usable and certainly a great deal for the money. Miroslav Philharmonik's strings I think are better in various ways but then it is also more money. Of course you get a ton of other orchestral instruments as well. Having both along with SampleTank is really nice though.

As for Soundfonts, the bottom line is that whatever they are they are certainly not the same recordings myself or Miroslav did (unless illegally of course) so they are going to be different. I was kidding when I said one wasn't better than the other. It is largely a matter of taste. A lot of times you find out how good a sound is when it is in context of a piece of music though, particularly YOUR music done the way you like it. So, sometimes you don't know.

By the way, you guys can get a lot of the sounds from the Expansion Tanks ala carte as downloadable from www.esoundz.com The whole library isn't up there but there is a nice selection and it can be used as a sort of "try before you buy" thing in some ways. You have to pay a little bit but not much relatively.

[DevonB]

I think most people around these parts miss the point of GPO. GPO is a complete SOLUTION. Someone who has *NOTHING* can put together orchestral arrangements because it has the samples, the sample player, and the host, all bundled together as a package. Many of us 'round here already have a good host that we're comfortable with, might have a sample player (Gigastudio, Kontakt, HALion, sfz+, etc), so we only need the sounds. Are the sounds good? Sure. Are there better libraries out there? Absolutely. Do they compete with VSL or the other high end libraries? Hell no. Was that Gary's goal to beat VSL? Hell no. Like any library, it has its strengths and weaknesses. Considering it was designed to fit within 1 gig of RAM, corners had to be cut. But the point is, we're not necessarily the real 'target audience' that Gary was after, which is college students and people who want to dabble in orchestral music, but don't want to make a huge outlay of cash to get all the aformentioned pieces to get started.

MV is still in a lot of respects a 'high end' library with its audio quality. Name me another sound library that's even relavant that came out in 1993? Hard pressed? I bet you are. I'm very much looking forward to checking out what Squids did to this baby to make it shine. I still have MV installed on my hard drive from the EMu discs I translated into Giga format, and I still love it, even if the original was a bit limited with the EMu format.

With its price point, Philharmonik will probably be sitting really pretty, but I'll wait to pass judgement on that one when it hits my mailbox. Expect a review shortly after its release at Trax.

Devon

[Squids]

Good points there Devon. That sounds about right.

[harmony gardens]

Very well said DevonB. Something to think about. I'm so anxious to get Philharmonik,,, it sounds like it will be great.

[nexussynth]

..Are the sounds good? Sure. Are there better libraries out there? Absolutely. Do they compete with VSL or the other high end libraries? Hell no. Was that Gary's goal to beat VSL? Hell no. Like any library, it has its strengths and weaknesses. Considering it was designed to fit within 1 gig of RAM, corners had to be cut...

Devon

Actually Devon, that isn't what Gary was saying when GPO was introduced in late 2003. He told me he was after a price breakthrough in pro quality libraries. GPO was touted on his forum as something pros could use to score films, etc.

It was only after EWQLSO's Silver beat the pants off GPO that he began saying it was for the academic solution of music students. To that end, something like "Notion" would fit the bill better.

So really, nobody's missing the point about GPO. Gary has just changed his marketing tactic because the weaknesses make GPO hard to use for realistic sounding orchestral mockups, which many people discovered after the hugely succesful EWQLSO Gold group buy. Why was it "hugely succesful"? Because GPO cannot get that big sweeping orchestral granduer that Gold and even Silver can for most pieces one would like to do.

The Miroslav has that 'sweeping granduer' too and it is that quality that attracts most people to orchestral music in general.

If all one wants to do is recreate 18th century classical works in the vein of Mozart, then GPO is one of the best choices, imho. Small chamber music and woodwind quintets are ideal too and that is mainly what I use it for now.

Relaxed modern jazz orchestra works like Craig Reeves has done show off GPO very nicely.

If you want to do Strauss and Wagner, to say nothing of massive modern filmscoring, then GPO sounds incredibly wimpy. I use to kid myself that GPO could do it too, but even if you try you will find it takes so much work that it kind of defeats the purpose of what you say GPO is intended to do. The Strauss demo on the website of "2001"(sic) sounds embarrasing. I told Gary that he should not put that one up but instead it even has been mentioned in reviews of GPO (and not well, btw).

Was the guy who made that demo a rank amatuer with tin ears? NO!.

He just was running smack into GPO's weakness. Sorry (Gary).

One thing that impresses from the Miroslav demo from musikmesse is how easily a sweeping otchestral sound was played in real time yet!

I can't even do that with my EWQLSO Gold!

I feel that the Miroslav will be the next library to beat because it offers so much more than GPO.

I have heard only a few demos of the MOTU Symphonic but there is something very 'canned' about the sound. It lacks granduer that Miroslav and East West engineered into their samples.

Even VSL lacks this sometimes.

Gary Garritan needs to re-work GPO completely to bring it up to modern spec. It got dated so quickly. I am supposing that is what "Advanced" is going to be but really it should also be done with the original library. Gary keeps pushing the release date for Advanced further and further into the future because he's waiting to see what happens with the Miroslav. Apparently he was upset last fall when he learned that the Miroslav was being re-worked to sell so cheaply. I don't blame him.

I would like to see ALL the orchestral libraries succeed that are priced for actual mortals to buy. East West needs to do a heads-up and get realistic about their pricing policy. They would STILL be selling the EWQSLO Gold like hotcakes if they permanently lowered the price to $400.

And Gary should make the "Advanced" thing his "GPO II" and sell it for $280.

The Miroslav is worth the price, believe me. I have the orginal set and this one is great.

Again, just my opinions.

[DevonB]

Actually Devon, that isn't what Gary was saying when GPO was introduced in late 2003. He told me he was after a price breakthrough in pro quality libraries. GPO was touted on his forum as something pros could use to score films, etc.

I chatted with both Gary and Tom a few times during the course of doing my review for Trax. That wasn't the impression I got from Gary. And when you metion 'his forum', who was doing the mentioning? Him directly? I've seen many times on his forum wild speculations that were eventually thought of as fact because someone said it was so, too.

It was only after EWQLSO's Silver beat the pants off GPO that he began saying it was for the academic solution of music students. To that end, something like "Notion" would fit the bill better.

So really, nobody's missing the point about GPO. Gary has just changed his marketing tactic because the weaknesses make GPO hard to use for realistic sounding orchestral mockups, which many people discovered after the hugely succesful EWQLSO Gold group buy. Why was it "hugely succesful"? Because GPO cannot get that big sweeping orchestral granduer that Gold and even Silver can for most pieces one would like to do.

You act as if everyone wants to do Hollywood film scores. I agree though that EWQLSO seemed to be more focused on that 'huge' Hollywood sound, which if you want to do that, then you got it in the bag with it. I don't own EWQLSO, so I can't pass too much judgement, but EWQLSO fulfills a niche, just like GPO. It's all these libraries as a whole that give true flexibility. I'm preaching to the choir on that one with you though.

The Miroslav has that 'sweeping granduer' too and it is that quality that attracts most people to orchestral music in general.

Oh, I agree, it does. I'm curious to see the amount of material that's been extracted out of the archives. The Mother Load was what? 6 CD Rom's only?

One thing that impresses from the Miroslav demo from musikmesse is how easily a sweeping otchestral sound was played in real time yet!

Me too.

I can't even do that with my EWQLSO Gold!

I feel that the Miroslav will be the next library to beat because it offers so much more than GPO.

If we're strictly speaking sound quality of the samples, sure. Still nothing touches GPO as a complete solution though that I'm aware of? If anyone harps on 'value for money', I know Mr. Squids here will back that one.

Even VSL lacks this sometimes.

VSL is what it is. It's a tool in the toolbox. It cannot do everything. I'm actually not that wowed by the quality of the strings of VSL, but the percussion section is incredible, and I have the Pro version of that section of the library.

I would like to see ALL the orchestral libraries succeed that are priced for actual mortals to buy. East West needs to do a heads-up and get realistic about their pricing policy. They would STILL be selling the EWQSLO Gold like hotcakes if they permanently lowered the price to $400.

Maybe, maybe not. Lowering for a sale makes a 'pressure' sell. You know if you delay, you'll have to spend $1000 to get it instead of $400. If it's always $400, you might jsut 'wait until later' instead.

The Miroslav is worth the price, believe me. I have the orginal set and this one is great.

Me too, and I agree. The MV set is good, but did need an 'update' with how small the sample set is. The passion is in those samples.

Again, just my opinions.

Mine too.

Devon

[Arglebargle]

But ouch - I'd have to say that free soundfonts can sound much more realistic and appealing than those strings. It's not so much that they sound so bad, but why would you pay money for a product that doesn't sound better than free soundfonts?

What a completely strange thing to say. All of the free soundfonts I've tried suck beyond belief. As far as I can tell free soundfonts are an affront to God himself.

[Squids]

Some very interesting things being said. Good read.

Hey, I have a question for you. Is there a particular midi-made audio demo of any orchestral library that you really like? Can you point me to it? Thanks

[Rellik]

But ouch - I'd have to say that free soundfonts can sound much more realistic and appealing than those strings. It's not so much that they sound so bad, but why would you pay money for a product that doesn't sound better than free soundfonts?

What a completely strange thing to say. All of the free soundfonts I've tried suck beyond belief. As far as I can tell free soundfonts are an affront to God himself.

Argle, I'm pretty sure you've heard my music - can't quite remember. But anyway, if you've heard any of my orchestral stuff, that's 99% free samples (and the ESPECIALLY-GOOD-sounding stuff in there is generally NOT the 1% that is made with commercial samples). In case you haven't heard it, the URL for my most recent and best orchestral thingy is http://soundtempest.net/ovgmc2/Rellik%2 ... 20Here.mp3. That's an ST2 violin layered with a free violin, an ST2 cello layered with a free cello, an ST2 piano (I love the pianos but I'm not picky when it comes to piano...) and the rest is free SF2's. I can give you recommendations if you want!

[Arglebargle]

Yeah, I've heard both originals and game remixes from you, and your work is all-around great. You posted some short epic orchestral piece in the Song Cafe a few months ago... those were free samples?

Not only do the free soundfonts I have suck, but I only have sfz to use them with, which is horrible. Part of the reason I like ST2 is because of the integration of samples and effects. If SampleTank supported soundfonts, I would probably use them a lot more often. sfz not only is lacking effects, but it frequently doesn't even work right in my sequencer.

But yeah, I'd definitely like recommendations, particularly symphonic brass and staccato strings.

[DevonB]

Some very interesting things being said. Good read.

Hey, I have a question for you. Is there a particular midi-made audio demo of any orchestral library that you really like? Can you point me to it? Thanks

I'm most impressed with Cartoon done on EWQLSO Silver. The composition skills in that piece are impressive, and it sounds wonderful, I think. I'm assuming you're asking about a more well known classical piece or something along those lines though?

Devon

[Rellik]

Not only do the free soundfonts I have suck, but I only have sfz to use them with, which is horrible. Part of the reason I like ST2 is because of the integration of samples and effects. If SampleTank supported soundfonts, I would probably use them a lot more often. sfz not only is lacking effects, but it frequently doesn't even work right in my sequencer.

But yeah, I'd definitely like recommendations, particularly symphonic brass and staccato strings.

sfz is what I use too I find it great - just use external effects. Especially for orchestral, what more do they need but a little reverb? Of course, given that they're free soundfonts, they're going to need heavy dosages of EQ and often compression.

Nice all-around set: Squidfont! Use heavy, heavy EQ - needs a lot of gain as well, since it's so quiet. The main thing Squidfont is good for is its staccato's. Also has some nice legato, but they're not all nice. Squidfont is what got the most usage.

Flute: 314-Good_Flute. I imagine you can find it on SF2Midi. Nice legato layering trombone: Papelmedia_Trombone. Great choir: S J Orchestral (you can find a link to it somewhere on K-v-R forums, that's where I first heard of it - also has some other nice stuff).

Honestly, it's quite a chore getting it all to work. Chore isn't even really an appropriate word... it was really such a draining excercise to get all these free sounds to sound good together that I've decided not to try any more full-scale orchestral renderings (though I'm moving into doing sheet-music-based compositions) until I get an orchestral library (hopefully Philharmonik ). So it's been all electronica lately - when there's been time for any at all.

So, yes, the point about effort is quite valid. It took hours upon hours just to get the ensemble up and running, not to mention the time it took to compose around the limitations and make up for the poor articulations. I'll have a nice orchestral library before long... oh yeah, it's going to be a year from now. Right, that sucks

[Arglebargle]

I'm going to partake in the GPO group buy.

I mean, I'd be a damn fool not to.

And of course I want Philharmonik, but it's not yet released. Which is okay, because the price is way out of my league at the moment.

[nexussynth]

Some very interesting things being said. Good read.

Hey, I have a question for you. Is there a particular midi-made audio demo of any orchestral library that you really like? Can you point me to it? Thanks

Well users have made many demos that are terrific of anything from GPO to EWQLSO Platinum and VSL.

So that is a hard one for me to make a recomendation.

I do like the GOLD demo on the SOL website of "Etude" by Bernard Asselin. That and "Fallen Angels" of the Platinum.

GPO has many great things demo'd (see I DO think GPO can sound good! Just takes a lot of work..). I like the Piano Concerto of Craig Reeves.

I have a collection of user pieces (or demos) from GPO and EWQLSO. Among those are MY favorite (and my own, of course! ).

[nexussynth]

Me too, and I agree. The MV set is good, but did need an 'update' with how small the sample set is. The passion is in those samples.


Mine too.

Devon

Devon, that was my point. The MV have a 'musicality' that GPO is lacking (but of course it was very nice when it first came out).

I also don't hate GPO and still use it now and then. I also don't have a grudge against Garritan, just in case I'm giving that impression.

I just hate to see people like me keep spending money on orchestral libraries that are not quite 'there' yet. There is a threshold in quality that has been crossed by QLSO and othere libraries must now approach that level to satisfy.

They must also not cost an 'arm-and-a-leg'

I should also point out that I am not primarily interested in film scoring as I am a hobbyist.

Though i do love film music and find it inspiring at times in my own compostions, I lean towards a modern symphonic mode of composing.

But if you talk to the majority of musicians who want to buy an orchestral library, then you find they are wanting to get a big Hollywood sound (even among students, it seems).

Many people are frustrated by GPO because it cannot get that sound without a huge amount of tweaking etc.

And Gary did suggest initially that GPO was of great use for film scoring....

Peace.