Mr. Squids tell all

[telebunke]

Some very interesting things being said. Good read.

Hey, I have a question for you. Is there a particular midi-made audio demo of any orchestral library that you really like? Can you point me to it? Thanks

What I'm really missing, from all the orchestra manufactorer demos I've listened to so far, is a demo embedded in Pop, R&B, or other contemporary stuff.
Somehow I can't really imagine that the orchestra libraries are only used by film music and classical composers.

tele

[DevonB]

They must also not cost an 'arm-and-a-leg'

Well hey, once you can find a ton of session musicians who are experts at their instruments who'll play for next to nothing, have them willing to repeat single notes over and over, and get that orchestra hall for next to nothing, have someone record it for next to nothing.. blah blah blah, on and on... then I'm sure the libraries will be very affordable. But let's be realistic here. We're talking about recording a LOT of instruments. You pay $200 for a piano library right? Take it into perspective of all the work for so many instruments, all the editing and time involved for so many people, then seriously tell me that these things cost an arm and a leg relative to what you're getting? How much do you think it costs to rent the hall they do the recording in alone? This isn't done in one day in one session. I can continue, but I think you get the point. I'm not even a sound developer, but people complaining about prices does tend to get a bit under my skin for a full orch library.

Devon

[Rellik]

They must also not cost an 'arm-and-a-leg'

Well hey, once you can find a ton of session musicians who are experts at their instruments who'll play for next to nothing, have them willing to repeat single notes over and over, and get that orchestra hall for next to nothing, have someone record it for next to nothing.. blah blah blah, on and on... then I'm sure the libraries will be very affordable. But let's be realistic here. We're talking about recording a LOT of instruments. You pay $200 for a piano library right? Take it into perspective of all the work for so many instruments, all the editing and time involved for so many people, then seriously tell me that these things cost an arm and a leg relative to what you're getting? How much do you think it costs to rent the hall they do the recording in alone? This isn't done in one day in one session. I can continue, but I think you get the point. I'm not even a sound developer, but people complaining about prices does tend to get a bit under my skin for a full orch library.

Devon

Personally, I think everything about the cost of making the library is pretty irrelevant when you're talking about price (from the user's point of view). I have great respect for the skill, effort, and money it takes to make a good library - I don't argue that the developers don't have a right to charge an appropriate amount (or actually whatever they want to charge). But... too much is too much, you know?

If it's too much for YOU (speaking in general to The User), and you really want it, then it's just too much! That's the only way a user can ever really look at it... I really don't see why that would get under your skin.

[DevonB]

If it's too much for YOU (speaking in general to The User), and you really want it, then it's just too much! That's the only way a user can ever really look at it... I really don't see why that would get under your skin.

Because I know people who make a living doing sound design.

No, the cost of developing is not irrelavant. If it costs more to make than what you're going to recoup in sales, that's called bad business practice. The high end library caters to the professional musician who do it for a living and really is a write-off to the business. If you find the price is too high, then you're probably not the intended audience. If you add up each instrument that's recorded, and divide it by the cost of the library, you'll find the cost is very reasonable. For example, I believe the VSL Percussion Pro library that I have, which goes for $880, has 67 instruments recorded. Do the math, that comes out to $13.13 an instrument. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. If that's too much, you can always find musicians in yout and see if they'll let you record them too. A top flight professional will probably charge you more though than what you'll pay for the library though depending what you want to accomplish.

Devon

[Squids]

Some very interesting things being said. Good read.

Hey, I have a question for you. Is there a particular midi-made audio demo of any orchestral library that you really like? Can you point me to it? Thanks

What I'm really missing, from all the orchestra manufactorer demos I've listened to so far, is a demo embedded in Pop, R&B, or other contemporary stuff.
Somehow I can't really imagine that the orchestra libraries are only used by film music and classical composers.

tele

You know what? You're right. That is a darn good point. So, maybe I will do a few different types of demos besides just classical. I will do a few film soundtrack sounding ones, some orchestrated rock sounding stuff and maybe sort of Metheney-esque jazz thing too. We'll see. We're going to do many demos over time. It will be fun.

[Squids]

If it's too much for YOU (speaking in general to The User), and you really want it, then it's just too much! That's the only way a user can ever really look at it... I really don't see why that would get under your skin.

Because I know people who make a living doing sound design.

No, the cost of developing is not irrelavant. If it costs more to make than what you're going to recoup in sales, that's called bad business practice. The high end library caters to the professional musician who do it for a living and really is a write-off to the business. If you find the price is too high, then you're probably not the intended audience. If you add up each instrument that's recorded, and divide it by the cost of the library, you'll find the cost is very reasonable. For example, I believe the VSL Percussion Pro library that I have, which goes for $880, has 67 instruments recorded. Do the math, that comes out to $13.13 an instrument. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. If that's too much, you can always find musicians in yout and see if they'll let you record them too. A top flight professional will probably charge you more though than what you'll pay for the library though depending what you want to accomplish.

Devon

Yes, how quickly people forget that if you didn't have people sampling then you'd need to hire a vibe player every time you wanted to hear vibes. That's why I agree that even VSL is great value for the money, yet people think it is expensive. Of course, Sonic Reality samples EVERYTHING and brings each sound to the user for the price of a phone call (local even) to the vibe player!

[Rellik]

If it's too much for YOU (speaking in general to The User), and you really want it, then it's just too much! That's the only way a user can ever really look at it... I really don't see why that would get under your skin.

Because I know people who make a living doing sound design.

No, the cost of developing is not irrelavant. If it costs more to make than what you're going to recoup in sales, that's called bad business practice. The high end library caters to the professional musician who do it for a living and really is a write-off to the business. If you find the price is too high, then you're probably not the intended audience. If you add up each instrument that's recorded, and divide it by the cost of the library, you'll find the cost is very reasonable. For example, I believe the VSL Percussion Pro library that I have, which goes for $880, has 67 instruments recorded. Do the math, that comes out to $13.13 an instrument. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. If that's too much, you can always find musicians in yout and see if they'll let you record them too. A top flight professional will probably charge you more though than what you'll pay for the library though depending what you want to accomplish.

Devon

Bad business practice is the irrelevant part - how is it relevant? It's relevant to the developers, but not to the user. And I'm a user. Most users are, in fact, users. That's what I'm trying to say - it doesn't matter to the end-user whether the dev makes or lose money.

And yes, your point about target audience is perfectly relevant. I mean, I'd like to be a rich professional, but I'm not - maybe the future, but for now, I'm not. I'm not trying to be a troll, but I must confess: it makes me ANGRY, these prices. ANGRY! I want to have fun and play with great samples and make great sounding orchestrations too! I mean, of course - I wouldn't even be posting defending the practice of complaining about prices if THEY didn't get under my skin! Angry angry angry not angry at Squids or IK or Sonic Reality, just angry at, I don't know, money...

Anyway, I'm just trying to get across to you how it feels. Whether it's "reasonable" or not doesn't make any #*$&*ing bit of difference - I could rant all day! I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me or people like me... I don't feel sorry for MYSELF, even - I'll survive! It's not a big deal! But it's just FRUSTRATING!!! Especially when a product bills itself as "inexpensive" and is still too expensive to justify the purchase... I'm sorry if it gets under your skin, DevonB, but nothing's going to stop people from complaining when they feel like they could really use that library, but they can't afford to use up that kind of money rather than save it for a certain specific ultra-expensive future expenditure...

I'm not making a point - I'm not talking about IK Philharmonik - I'm just explaining what goes on inside the head of an individual maddened and tantalized by excellent products swirling this way and that, and not being able to snatch one out of the air. You don't see more of people like me because most of the people in the same situation as I am are PIRATES. I should never have given up piracy... too late now, of course KVR made me grow a conscience when it comes to devs.

Anyway, DevonB, the reason for this post is to make it perfectly clear why whether the price of a product is "reasonable" or not is totally irrelevant to the people who are going to be doing the complaining in the first place...

To tell you the truth I haven't been seeing alot of complaining (see my comment about piracy) besides myself though (although I don't see myself as complaining either... am I? I rather liberally express my frustration because I have to get it out somehow... maybe I should start a blog or something, "Things Rellik Wants and Can't Have")

[nexussynth]

They must also not cost an 'arm-and-a-leg'

Well hey, once you can find a ton of session musicians who are experts at their instruments who'll play for next to nothing, have them willing to repeat single notes over and over, and get that orchestra hall for next to nothing, have someone record it for next to nothing.. blah blah blah, on and on... then I'm sure the libraries will be very affordable. But let's be realistic here. We're talking about recording a LOT of instruments. You pay $200 for a piano library right? Take it into perspective of all the work for so many instruments, all the editing and time involved for so many people, then seriously tell me that these things cost an arm and a leg relative to what you're getting? How much do you think it costs to rent the hall they do the recording in alone? This isn't done in one day in one session. I can continue, but I think you get the point. I'm not even a sound developer, but people complaining about prices does tend to get a bit under my skin for a full orch library.

Devon

I would be the last one to argue against the skilled musicians who have been displaced by orchestral products for sampling. My father is a retired contrabass player, so I'm not being heavy!

What has happened is, that the bar has been lowered for orchestral libraries and sadly the amount of work and expense involved is considerable.

However, it was Gary Garritan who lowered that bar nearly two years ago. He confided to me in our first phone conversation that his GOAL was to lower the price of a pro library so mere mortals (non-pros) could enjoy the fruits of working with professional samples, expertly programmed. He achieved that then but GPO was quickly outdated. I am sorry for him and wish that the Advanced will work out better with more staying power.

Gary also told me that to obtain orchestral samples in eastern Europe is dirt cheap where sessions can be done for like, $2500. These are his statements, not mine. Musicians there are highly skilled and talented but have fallen on hard times and so one can sort of take advantage of the situation. Regretable.

Now that the bar has been lowered (it actually did begin with the Edirol HQO about three years ago, but that was not top quality, of course) for good quality orchestra and even great orchestra, what do we do?

Do we just raise our chins and say we will pay the stratospheric prices so we can support our brother musicians? I don't feel that the orchestra players are the ones making money from the massive East West sessions a couple years ago and recently. Neither the Vienna players. Sure, they are being compensated but the big bucks (if there are any) don't factor in their lives much. The sampling sessions are done for the most part.

I know squids has said he will be adding to Miroslav and that is good and will employ musicians etc, but I fail to see the logic as a consumer of these products in suffering other companies who continue to expect us hobbyists (and we are legion. Don't kid yourself that only pros make up the buying public for these orchestral products!)

East West is really out of touch with their buyers. I have many people telling me privately that they just can't swing that $700 for Gold pro and a $1000 for the Choir, etc. I know I won't ever again pay $1000 for ANY library and I'm actually not alone in that sentiment.

SR has a history of undercutting the competition with low cost products that sound high-cost pro. I like that and will support companies who have that philosophy, whenever I am able to. I certainly don't think they are hurting anyone by offering the Miroslav so cheaply. Yeah, I hate to have to buy it again but it was never given the modern treatment it deserved.

I can tell you, the 'other' companies making orchestral libraries are looking somewhat worriedly at what the response will be to the new Miroslav when it comes out. That's the REAL game that is being played right now and why Garritan is holding off (and holding his breath!) about GPO Advanced, and why East West is playing around with the release date for QLSO Pro, to say nothing of MOTU, Notion and the rest.

It is in our American system of trade that competition is good for consumers and bad for vendors. I can't change that and I'm not sure I would if I could. I can only benefit from it.

I guess I'm through with this topic. This is just what I personally think.

I would much rather listen to some Miroslav demos and then discuss.

again,
Peace

[zai]

As a hobbist (not a hobbit), I can only afford to buy so much in any given time. A $250US sample library is really a lot...and there's no way to "sample" it before you buy...unless your local music store has a copy on display (which they rarely do here....)

As I was looking at East West's products...I'm totally at lost of "who" would actually buy those libraries? On second thought...I'm sure there are more hobbist who buys them than the pros.

I'm not trying to make any point...nor am I trying to engage in an argument. It seems like we are at a cross-road right now. I think "some" developers are playing some mind games here. The bigger the sample library the better it is...simply NOT true. That's why I'm eagerly waiting for Miroslav to come out...IK pays attention to us...I'm hoping that they are making enough profits to continue to roll out good quality, affordable products for us.

It's not the quantity that I'm looking for, it's quality...and if it happens to be a good quality HUGE sample library, I don't mind paying for it...reasonable of course. I've read some review of some East West library that it though the library size is large, there aren't that many good "quality" sounds one can use.

Anyway...trying to keep up with these long posts...man, you guys are making me read a lot lately!

Again, Squids, thanks again for the GB (which for those who still wants to join has a little time left...June 8th)! I can afford to pay $400 for good quality products like ST2 and SS2...I'm sure I'll be using it a lot.

Zai

[Kim Lajoie]

East West is really out of touch with their buyers. I have many people telling me privately that they just can't swing that $700 for Gold pro and a $1000 for the Choir, etc. I know I won't ever again pay $1000 for ANY library and I'm actually not alone in that sentiment.

As I was looking at East West's products...I'm totally at lost of "who" would actually buy those libraries?

Guys, software and sample libraries that are priced high are targeted squarely at professionals - people who's full time job is to make music. These are just tools, and in many cases they're actually very cheap for the use they provide.

For someone who uses this gear for a living, it's not a case of saving up to buy it - it's a case of purchasing it as a business decision. Because using the gear will save money, get more work, take less time, etc. If it's too expensive for hobbyists, it's because it's not targeted at hobbyists.

Forever,




Kim.

[telebunke]

Well yeah, the costs, the prices.
This is for squids to help him to gain even more understanding of his customers.
My customer catogory is: Doing it for a hobby, started this 2 1/2 years ago, trying to become
as pro in songwriting, arrangement and sound as possible. Money spent to build up my
software studio in these 2 1/2 years: About $12000. That is for PC, mic, audio card,
Cubase, VSTIs, UAD cards, monitors, Evolution MK-461C and samples.

So far, I do not have an all in one orchestra library. But I do have VSL Chamber Strings.
Now, why did I buy the $800 strings? Because I wanted cool strings and I wasn't sure
whether EWQL silver or gold would do it good enough for me. I thought, either go on using
what you have in Hypersonic and Omnisynth or go the whole way.
Man, how I love my staccato strings in my pop tunes, now.
http://24.9.145.185/smf/index.php?actio ... 7.0;id=260
(not finished, but the strings sound cool, IMHO)
What I did know is that GPO wasn't for me. My friend got it and I didn't like it that much.
And now? Peter Siedlaczek's String Essentials are coming up,
he demoed them to me at the Musikmesse - those would have done the job for me and they
are less than half the price. Well that's how life goes.
Anyway, with that experience in my back pack, I'm very curious to see how Philharmonik
will be for me, cause I'm gonna get it. Somehow I anticipate that, for me, the strings
from Philharmonik wille suffice and the it's instruments, too. And that would be nice
for that price. I'd feel more complete...

tele

[sghoughton]

I wonder what the ratio of pros to hobbiests actually is. I'm very much a hobbiest myself - i play around with the sounds more than actually create full tunes (i create tons of partial tunes though). I love symphony sounds and am dying to get miroslav as i really cant justify 1000$+ on a library yet (maybe someday) and possibly wont have to after miroslav. I did end up getting the GPO group buy only because i was thinking i've spent similar amounts on just a sample library before so if i consider it no more than another sample library, than why not really. Even if there are a few usable samples, then i think its likely worth it. I'm very much looking forward to the day that we see miroslav released here though.

As far as libraries displacing musicians, I wonder if that really is the case. I know i'd never in my wildest dreams hire and orchestra for anything. And I'd bet 99.999% here would be the same. So really, the only thing these libraries do are open up opportunities for more music to be produced and that cant be a bad thing for anyone.

steve

[telebunke]

Talking about cheap orchestra libraries. I wonder what EMU's VIRTUOSO X is gonna be like for $70 - GPO is reallllllly expensive compared to this one.
Does anyone have it or the original hardware VIRTUOSO?

tele

[Squids]

Here's my take on this stuff you're talking about. IK and SR's philosophy is similar in that we cater to MUSICIANS. It doesn't matter if you are already pro or WANT to be pro or want to SOUND pro (who doesn't at least want that?), we offer professional level material that is affordable and gives great value for the money.

We're about to do something (besides Philharmonik) that is going to blow your minds as far as high quality diverse sounds at an incredible price coming up soon. This is something that has been many years in the making and we're finally almost ready to unleash it on you. If any developer is worried about Miroslav Philharmonik then they'll need to be even more worried about this!

But, even with regard to Philharmonik, if any developer really is waiting then I think that they are going to be puzzled on how to compete directly with it. The reason for that is that a lot of developers try to compete just in terms of written specs. Bells and whistle features which can be fun and useful but it doesn't tell you the CHARACTER of the sounds. The SOUND of the sounds, not the possible ACTIONS of the sounds. Sometimes the sound can be more important than the "tricks" it can do or the flexible options you have. (kind of reminds me of the difference between the original Oberheim SEM and the Oberheim Matrix 12 if you know what I mean)

Miroslav Philharmonik has a certain sound to it and nothing else will have this sound so if you like it then you get it! Of course the same can be true (and is) of other company's libraries. So, it really doesn't matter if a developer waits to see this or not because while they can work on beating its specs on paper they aren't going to be able to have the same sound character it has. It will ALWAYS be different.

[DevonB]

And yes, your point about target audience is perfectly relevant. I mean, I'd like to be a rich professional, but I'm not - maybe the future, but for now, I'm not. I'm not trying to be a troll, but I must confess: it makes me ANGRY, these prices. ANGRY! I want to have fun and play with great samples and make great sounding orchestrations too! I mean, of course - I wouldn't even be posting defending the practice of complaining about prices if THEY didn't get under my skin! Angry angry angry not angry at Squids or IK or Sonic Reality, just angry at, I don't know, money...

Anyway, I'm just trying to get across to you how it feels. Whether it's "reasonable" or not doesn't make any #*$&*ing bit of difference - I could rant all day! I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me or people like me... I don't feel sorry for MYSELF, even - I'll survive! It's not a big deal! But it's just FRUSTRATING!!! Especially when a product bills itself as "inexpensive" and is still too expensive to justify the purchase... I'm sorry if it gets under your skin, DevonB, but nothing's going to stop people from complaining when they feel like they could really use that library, but they can't afford to use up that kind of money rather than save it for a certain specific ultra-expensive future expenditure...)

Hey, even I feel VSL is a bit steep, so I bought the pieces I wanted and could afford. Would I like to buy Everything? Sure. Can I afford everything? Not exactly. My feelings? Oh well. If I really want them that bad, I'll save up for it and buy it. If I can't afford it, it's not that important to me, as I can still write music with what I have.

But sure, feel free to complain. It'll still get under my skin because I feel people don't take into consideration the amount of money it takes to make a library of that proportion, nor do they put it in perspective of how MUCH you get relative to the cost. I have as much of a right to complain as you do, I just don't agree as to why you're complaining. Different perspective.

Devon