Compressor settings for pianos No Pumping??

[bduffy]

Couldn't you use EQ to give some sense of depth to the pianos? As you may know, that's what routinely done with things like backing vocals, because the ear hears less hi-end on distant objects.

3*s could be right; a limiter might give you some clean compression.

[Frippertronix]

Couldn't you use EQ to give some sense of depth to the pianos? As you may know, that's what routinely done with things like backing vocals, because the ear hears less hi-end on distant objects.

3*s could be right; a limiter might give you some clean compression.

Right on your first point but it's also a struggle to keep some resolution to the chords. I think recording piano must be difficult in general because chords are often used in the bass and lower middle region, which is what I often do. So it's a bit of a tug of war to avoid too much brightness, get enough bass, and keep those lower register chords from turning to mud.

I have just tried the TbT limiter and I'm going to go to that in the future for sure on grand piano.

How would you suggest setting the knee on the TbT Pocket Limiter for this kind of piano (it has a percentage setting)?

[kilroy]

The kilroy method for huge, transparent piano smash.

You will need...


- patience and willingness to experiment

- two ears

- two good EQs

- two good compressors

- and a partridge in a peartree

Take one well recorded piano and roll everything 80hz and below off with a 12db per octave slope. I normally lift around 1.5k a bit going into the first compressor, but not always. If you have a ratty sound to start with, be prepared to do some serious carving and shaping. That said, I have taken some beautifully recorded piano and had to make it right ratty sounding on it's own just to get it wedged into a busy mix. Some days your life can suck that way.

Set the first comp up with a slow attack, let all the transients through. Start with a low ratio setting, say 1.6:1 to 2:1, and dig waaaaay in with the threshold. Don't be shy. Start with a long release and slowly shorten it up till you start to here the compressor "working" the sound, then back off. Aim to get this comp to start working on the signal immediately after the full transients have passed. What you are trying to accomplish here is getting some more density and body without hacking at peak dynamics...just yet. Spend most of your time on this stage

Set the second comp up with higher ratio, say 10:1 to begin, a quick attack, and moderately quick release. Here you want to catch some peaks but not mash the life out of the sound. Drop the threshold *slowly* till you get some transient control. I usually like to see the gain reduction meters dancing with the music,
so you don't want too long of a release. Tame the peaks and pull up some more body.

Use the second EQ after the last comp to shape the final sound to the track.


All compressors have a different reactance, you will have to use you ears and fine tune settings accordingly. Sometimes I will use an EQ after the first compressor stage depending on what kind of transient I want sent to the second one. If the piano has to go through a real wall of sound you must be prepared for some brutal tone shaping.

[Frippertronix]

Great! I'll have to study this but I'll give it a try! Thanks!

I've also been reading about M/S processing and wondering if that can help me, by S'ing the piano and M'ing the vocal or other lead part. I've never tried it but, I don't know. Not sure I really understand the process so maybe I'm way off.

[3*s]

Knee controls how smoothly the compressor goes from off to full gain reduction. In other words, instead of reducing the gain 15:1 immediately after reaching the threshold, it gradually reduces the volume. This helps a lot to prevent pumping, and to preserve the natural sound of an instrument's attack.

Higher knee percentage makes for a more transparent sound, but the control over dynamics isn't as tight. Unless you want crisp attacks (I'm guessing you don't since you don't want pumping), I'd recommend a higher percentage (soft knee). Basically, turn it up to the point right before you start to lose the control over the dynamics that you want. Very hard knee is really only for quick percussive sounds, so a very soft knee should work just fine.

[Frippertronix]

Knee controls how smoothly the compressor goes from off to full gain reduction. In other words, instead of reducing the gain 15:1 immediately after reaching the threshold, it gradually reduces the volume. This helps a lot to prevent pumping, and to preserve the natural sound of an instrument's attack.

Higher knee percentage makes for a more transparent sound, but the control over dynamics isn't as tight. Unless you want crisp attacks (I'm guessing you don't since you don't want pumping), I'd recommend a higher percentage (soft knee). Basically, turn it up to the point right before you start to lose the control over the dynamics that you want. Very hard knee is really only for quick percussive sounds, so a very soft knee should work just fine.

So a knee control differs from an attack control in what way?

[Frippertronix]

I should add that part of my problem is that my grand piano is also my bass (and this, perhaps, is the crux of my impossible dream). As per kilroy's suggestion, it would be hard for me to roll off significantly in the range below 80 Hz because I need that "bass guitar" range in there as well.

This is just part of the kind of mix I'm creating, and partly because it's very inconvenient for me to add bass right now (though I do play it) so I'm trying to get around it. I also do this kind of thing with synth and just let the lowest note in my synth chords be the bass part. My chord parts are very fluid with a lot of changes so this actually works out quite well musically.

[3*s]

So a knee control differs from an attack control in what way?

Attack is a fixed amount of time past the threshold, knee responds to the input level.

It's usually measured in dB, some comps have a "percentage," which is usually a percentage of a fixed dB amount, GCO uses 10 dB as 100%. I'm not sure what it is for TbT limiter.

Anyway, how it works:

Lets say we have 10 dB knee and a 8:1 ratio. 5 dB before the threshold, it starts compressing the signal, but at a lower ration than 8:1. It doesn't get to full until 5db over the threshold (some only fade in under the threshold).

[Lunch Money]

Interesting one. To be honest, I've never heard of anyone compressing a piano signal. That doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done, just that I've never heard of anybody doing it or wanting to do it...

I would think people compress pianos lots! What if a player strikes it too hard?

I was assuming (as it turns out, correctly) that a sampled piano library was being used.

[danyell]

Play with the release control to minimize pumping. I like playing with Dominion when I want big sounds. It's got a limiter built in too.

Which direction, fast or slow?

Sorry took so long to get back (inadvertant bump).

It depends. A fast release time will not eliminate pumping but might make it sound less like pumping. A long release time can elimintate the pumping but then you run the risk of the compression of one note effecting the attack of the next note.

[kwac twice]

I think you answered your own question best, to achieve a balanced sound without pumping, I would use a multi-band compressor.
I do this 'outside' the computer, however, ao I can't recommend a software product.

[Stupid American Pig]

well, when I record my piano, I use heavy compression. My outboard compressor doesnt really "pump" that hard(behringer1953) but does the job well. I usually use 4:1 ratio and fast attack and release. For mics, I use 2 Nady SCM95s that are mounted side by side. I then use eq to tweak for mood. I roll off the high end for dark and mello stuff, and dip the mid bass slightly. For loud stuff I run it pretty flat, and add a touch of short decay reverb. Compression can sound great on piano, listen to lady madonna- they used cheap mics and heavy compression/limiting to record that. That is a great piano sound they got with that track...

[Frippertronix]

well, when I record my piano, I use heavy compression. My outboard compressor doesnt really "pump" that hard(behringer1953) but does the job well. I usually use 4:1 ratio and fast attack and release. For mics, I use 2 Nady SCM95s that are mounted side by side. I then use eq to tweak for mood. I roll off the high end for dark and mello stuff, and dip the mid bass slightly. For loud stuff I run it pretty flat, and add a touch of short decay reverb. Compression can sound great on piano, listen to lady madonna- they used cheap mics and heavy compression/limiting to record that. That is a great piano sound they got with that track...

Agreed on your last point. Pianos have such a big range and can really crank out a huge bass sound, why not compress for more sustain and take it up even another notch. I love his riffing both on Lady Madonna and Martha My Dear.

I've been having a lot of luck with TbT's Saturated Driver (with drive set fairly low) going into TbT Pocket Limiter, or just with the latter, which doesn't pump enough to notice.

I've also gone back to an old trick I had, which was achieved by using MIDI to have two pianos an octave apart playing all the same notes. The two actually blend so well it's hard to hear the octave, but you get a wider (by panning the two off a little bit), better defined, and more "chorusy" sound. It can sound quite huge with the right comp and verb.

Thanks to all for the advice,
Dave