KVR Audio

moonlite · Post by **moonlite** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:30 pm

<rant>

if you want to jump to the point, read below the # marker

I've been using several months of my life trying to find myself the perfect host. I've tried out practically all hosts there is, and I am very surprised. I won't go into detail about anything else now but my favourite subject, step recording/input/entry/editing/whatever.

as many (not most) of you, I started out with trackers, and got used to the workflow of entering notes (or chords) by playing them one by one, without having to care less about correct timing. after trackers I moved to logic, and just thaugth to myself that I have to live with the crappiest step input (or so I thaugth) because logic othervice were so good.

now after doing litterally months of testing I've actually noticed that logic seems to have the virtually BEST step input of all sequencers. and I am very very very dissapointed in all you devs out there ;).

It seems that you (devs) WANT to give us the option of step input, but it seems that you don't have a CLUE how to go about it. I can't imagine being so special about my needs.

#

imagine for a second that step inputting is like typing text on your keyboard. you press keys and the cursor jumps forward as the text appears. so far so good, project5, cubase, tracktion2 etc have made it so far. they've actually even included a "substitution for a spacebar", a key to write a "rest" (actually in cubase in default settings you have to do that with the arrow keys).

but then what? what if you make a typo? writing text you just press backspace. imagine having to ctrl-z AND having to press the left arrow key to make an undo. even "rests" work illogically. at least not as in typing text, as it IMHO shoud work.

well, guess what. that's where we are with our hosts and step input. that's sad.

of course writing notes more complicated than writing text, but IMHO it could be at a much better stage than it is now. it could be made almost perfect. even over 10 years old software AND hardware have had better inputs than the "cream" of the computer sequencers that we have today.

please, take your heads out of your asses and start thinking how you apply features to software, to make them better and more usable, instead of making them just so that the featurelist on the box would be longer.

I'm used to use computer software, so it's not that .. but IMHO all of the sequencers today are crap. and by crap I mean they are half as intuitive or "transparent" as they could be, and virtually all attempts to overcome this has been in vain.

if someone at ableton, raw material, apple, steinberg, etc etc would like some consultation in the step input issue, please, feel free to contact me anytime as this would be an aspect that would make so many peoples lifes so much easyer. most of them just don't realize it quite yet ;)

love, michael

pHz · Post by **pHz** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:34 pm

have you tried energyXT ??? i always found its piano roll to be excellent for step entry (cursor around ... keypresses for add / delete notes ... very fast to use) ...

... its important to remember the distinction between step-ENTRY and step-RECORDING though since from our discussion about T2 i got the impression that you want the former while T2 currently delivers the latter ...

... and ...

moonlite wrote:please, take your heads out of your asses and start thinking how you apply features to software, to make them better and more usable, instead of making them just so that the featurelist on the box would be longer.
I'm used to use computer software, so it's not that .. but IMHO all of the sequencers today are crap. and by crap I mean they are half as intuitive or "transparent" as they could be, and virtually all attempts to overcome this has been in vain.
love, michael

... not sure this is the way to convince devs that they want to listen to your ideas ... remember what works for YOU might not actually be best for the majority of users (how many of us come from a tracker background ??? ) and like it or not thats who devs have to cater for when coding ...

slainte

rob

moonlite · Post by **moonlite** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:54 pm

pHz wrote:have you tried energyXT ??? i always

... its important to remember the distinction between step-ENTRY and step-RECORDING though since from our discussion about T2 i got the impression that you want the former while T2 currently delivers the latter ...

... and ...

... not sure this is the way to convince devs that they want to listen to your ideas ... remember what works for YOU might not actually be best for the majority of users (how many of us come from a tracker background ??? ) and like it or not thats who devs have to cater for when coding ...

slainte :| rob

- yeah, energyxt is a bit to the better side of the hosts, but no pdc .. yet .. and the step recordint aint near perfect, either ..

- step EDITING is different than step RECORDING and step ENTRY, but as I define it, step recording and step entry (and step input) is the same thing. but anyway, this is just a matter of terminology

- i'm not here to convince anyone, please bare in mind that this is a rant.

- yeah, I know that many don't come from a tracker background, but I'm pretty sure the world would be a better place[tm] if good step input was around and people knew how to use it ..

peace, michael

cold c · Post by **cold c** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:24 pm

moonlite wrote: ...snip...

but then what? what if you make a typo? writing text you just press backspace. imagine having to ctrl-z AND having to press the left arrow key to make an undo. even "rests" work illogically. at least not as in typing text, as it IMHO shoud work.

...snip...

Sometimes a host will have a feature in order for it to appear on a feature list, rather than being the best possible implementation of such a feature.

In Cubase SX3 I don't use the step input myself, if I want to input the notes using the (qwerty) keyboard I duplicate any note that is close to what I want (and already in the key editor) and move it (nudge left, right, up, down) using the keyboard commands. Of course this is not optimal behaviour but it is another way to input notes. (You can delete the note more easily this way.)

As rob says above, the eXT implementation is better in various ways and it may be worth trying (again) if you use the feature frequently, but you may have to check the eXT commands guide to observe all the features such as note velocity/length adjustments etc.

original flipper · Post by **original flipper** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:59 pm

HI

Welcome to the world.

Flipper.

pHz · Post by **pHz** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:05 pm

moonlite wrote:please bare in mind that this is a rant.

yeah ... i know ... just (as ever) trying to provide some balance you know ???

slainte

rob

xoxos · Post by **xoxos** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:11 pm

my tried& tested advice - stick with logic 4 for pc and grow increasingly bitter about it.

pHz · Post by **pHz** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:15 pm

xoxos wrote:my tried& tested advice - stick with logic 4 for pc and grow increasingly bitter about it.

ah ... now the truth comes out ...

slainte

rob

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:46 pm

Step entry was an invaluable tool in my hardware days for getting really tight timing straight off but since I started using a computer I have found drawing in the Piano Roll to be infinitely preferable. Step sequencing seems completely redundant to me.

griels · Post by **griels** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:56 pm

Hmm, I have to say I much preferred Cubase VST's method of step recording, where you could indeed backspace to go back a step when you made a booboo... It is one feature I occasionally miss in SX3, although I've sort of got used to doing the old Ctrl-Z/left arrow hokey-cokey.

illsub1 · Post by **illsub1** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:02 am

Just assign the Ctrl+Z Left arrow to a macro. Can't you do that.

tony tony chopper · Post by **tony tony chopper** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:20 am

FL has a step recording, you can go forwards/backwards, add/replace notes, etc.
You can even add a chord at once (it adds all notes when you release one), or jump while you're holding notes (for holds)

griels · Post by **griels** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:21 am

Hmm, seems not.. I just tried to make a macro to do this and it's worse than I remember... You can only seem to backpedal a single step with the keyboard - any more seems to require mouse clicks. Then again, I'm far from au fait with the workings of the Step Entry editor or the SX Macro system.

Kim Lajoie · Post by **Kim Lajoie** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:37 am

In Cubase SX (2.2, at least) shift+backarrow does exactly what you're describing.

Forever,

Kim.

cold c · Post by **cold c** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:20 am

Jeez wrote:In Cubase SX (2.2, at least) shift+backarrow does exactly what you're describing.

Interesting thanks, it works in SX3 (as does shift + right arrow) sort of acts like an eraser chopping bits out of the middle of long notes, but it doesn't appear to be documented in the user manual(s).

Of course if they are going to include undocumented key commands/modifiers then I think it is best to make them as obscure as possible (not using 'delete' or 'backspace' or anything too obvious like that).

OMFG! - step input/recording - rant warning!