*thump* and *oompf*: Help with FX for kick drum needed.

[krank]

I'm trying to get a nice, thumpy kick drum sound for an electronica-style project. I'm doing the programming in Logic as a MIDI track, the instrument/audio object being a SoundFont with lots of kick drum samples that I made. I have a lot of difficulty in getting it right, so I hope some of you can help me out.

I'm using a pretty low-fidelity (88K) kick sample as basis. The higher-quality samples I have are simply too natural-sounding, there's too much room ambience, spill-over from the snare, etc.

I'm currently using: compressor (Logic) -> multiband EQ (Apple AU) -> guitar amp sim (Logic) -> matrix reverb (Apple AU).

The guitar amp (American Clean) and the matrix reverb (when tweaked right) give a LOT of low-end thumb, oompf, whatever. It's really cool. But I can't seem to get rid of a certain digital chipping-sound (you know, the *tzk* thats's barely audible but really annoying with headphones on). Whenever I kill the high frequencies on the EQ, the sound goes dull.

I'm thinking maybe I should change the order of the FX? Part of the problem is that the matrix reverb sounds very 'digital'. But none of the other reverbs in Logic sound good. Do I need to buy a quality reverb plug-in? Will an ordinary reverb give me more oompf? What is it about the matrix reverb that gives the sound that oompf, anyway?

Hope I made myself clear (I haven't being doing this for too long). Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[kritikon]

Personally I wouldn't be too keen on using reverb on a thumpy kick...it'll make a complete bugger of the rest of your mix (sounds good on its own, but generally not in a track)...if you must use reverb, then at least use an HPF on the reverb return to cut out the bass muddiness.

I don't spend too much time worrying about kicks - you find they come through better at the end when you're doing the final mix with compression etc on it. Invariably initially they sound weedy - that's normal - get them too pumped up, and they will blot out everything else at the end.

I wouldn't even bother with a multiband on a kick - just a decent wideband compressor to juice it up a bit, and then cut some Eq with a parametric to leave room for your bassline. If you heavily compress a kick, you will make other problems if you don't cut some Eq. Kicks generally contain quite alot of frequencies and are usually pretty loud in a mix - so when they're compressed they make anything else with those frequencies fight for room. Such as low toms, basslines, low-mid synth leads etc, even snares.

Some people seem to like layering kicks and subs and all sorts of fancy nonsense - myself, I just pick the right kick sample or synthesized hit for the track instead of insisting on forcing the wrong sound in a track that it doesn't fit into. If you really really have to use that exact sample and nothing else will do, then make your bassline fit around it - you have to be flexible with one or the other. Or try transposing the kick up or down a few notes...sometimes that works wonders.

If you pick the right sounds to complement each other, you don't have to force FX onto a kick - it will sound bigger and thumpier when the mix is compressed. And many use multibands nowadays on the mix - that will also bring up the kick later - just ignore it if it doesn't sound exactly right now.

Another thought is to try a drum synth rather than a sample - I find Drumatic from e-Phonic is pretty good for electronic kicks - it'll give you a hefty thump of a kick with only a few tweaks and you can then tailor it to your track easily without forcing a wrong sample to do what it maybe can't do.

[mr.me]

I agree...rarely verb on the kick....often EQ.

I could process a couple for ya, see if you like?

[brianbrian]

If you really think you must use reverb, make sure it is a short one, with a HPF in the return. Try moving things around in your chain. Since you like the thump the amp sim gives you, start with that. Then maybe adjust the resulting sound with EQ, and compress after, so the compressor reacts differently based on your EQ choices. If there is still an annoying "chk" but you want to keep the high end, try some kind of soft-clipper or even a de-esser maybe.

Or you could just abandon your DAW, go PC, and get Voxengo's LFPunch.

[krank]

Thank you for your time - all very good input. I've used another sample with less treble, taken off the reverb, and it sounds better now.

I have some additional questions:

1) kritikon: what would 'a decent' wideband compressor' be? I'm using Logic's own, set to 'kick - double punch', which sounds okay to me. The project revolves around simple breakbeats with a thumping kick and an aggressive snare, no hats or crashes, which is why I'm focusing so much on the kick to start out. But you seem to suggest that I may run into trouble later on, when more instruments are added?

2) mr.me: über cool. How would I do that - can I send you a sample by email, or upload it somewhere?

3) brianbrian: Do you sugges that I put the guitar amp sim first in the chain? By the way, I'm not familiar with the term de-esser, but I guess I can figure out what it does (peel of 's'-sounds, right?). Do you know of a free such plug-in?

4) All of the built-in reverbs in Logic Express sound pretty bad to me. But apart from the matrix reverb (AU) - which I have abandoned, because no matter how I tweak it, it simply sounds way too artificial to me - I've only checked out their standard settings. Do I need to invest in a plug-in, or can I get better results tweaking the silver, platinum (whatever they're called) reverbs?

Again, thanks a lot for your responses - it really is appreciated.

[IainF]

Me, I'd EQ before I compress. Compression can emphasise certian frequencies in a sound, and if they are they ones you are trying to remove then it will be a problem. You can EQ after too, but this will have a differnent effect.

I don't know much about your amp sim, I tend to not to use a cabinet and only a small amount of drive when I do simular things. Often I find that the kick doesn't sound as deep, but sounds fuller when I use this set-up. Try just a distortion/overdrive plugin. And once agian, EQ before distortion makes a huge difference. You can effectively change the amount of distortion at differnt frequencies. Try lowering the high frequencies before the distrotion/overdrive/ampsim and adding them back after.This will mean that they are cleaner (less distorted). Hopefully it will sound a bit warmer and phater.

I hardly ever use reverb on kick.

Just some thoughts.

[brianbrian]

Experiment with EQ first, before the amp, and maybe even another one after if the ampsim doesn't give you enough control over the tone. You probably won't need a de-esser, but there is the free Spitfish from DigitalFishPhones, which is great.

[finnbio]

Thump: Digital fishphones Blockfish (mono meat machine preset)
Oomph: Elogoxa baxxpander

Try it out - I'm confident it will give your something to work with!

Best
Alex

[Perfect Solitude]

if you want that slammin' trance kick, I'd suggest you check out opto based compressors. I haven't really found a plug that gives exactly that sound yet though.