KVR Radio station.

[Spe3D]

There wouldn't be a requirement to keep a massive amount of content on the server at the same time, because the RoboJock can pre-load a few tunes ahead and delete the local copies after they've been played (it would have to keep several pre-loads ahead, because some member sites will be off-line or badly connected at least some of the time).

It depends if how many times its going to prefetch the same tunes - for example if one track is played one day twice and then gets deleted, then gets it again the next day - but I can see a big amount of deleting and fetching, maybe even loads of times for the same track in the same day, all adds up to a bigger load.

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Spe3D]

some still in use after the rapid death of most web radios here (the damn copyright agency got carried away with their agenda) and some just waiting to be utilized.

How does the copyright issue affect your plans for a k-v-r radio station? how would you know that the content you stream is 100% ok?

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Glassback]

Hi guys - sorry I'm late for this party - just getting back home from another mad weekend. So you'll have to bear with me - I'll try no to ramble and waffle toooo much.


This is of course a great idea that's been mentioned here many times before. There are enough people here with enough expertise to actually make a go of something like this but, so far, apathy always gets in the way and nothing happens.
That's the sad reality and the first hurdle that needs to be overcome.
One person alone couldn't do this, I think, and if they did, they'd soon get pissed off with it so back to square one.
You need a team of dedicated individuals who aren't workshy and are motivated - but not by money.
And all good ideas always have their fair share of nay-sayers, as you've seen just from this thread. Believe me, that will get a lot worse as the project progresses, to the point where you may just end up wanting to throw in the towel, no matter how positive you may feel about it.

I could tell you stories of local corruption that'd make your hair curl. Which is why our community station had it's funding pulled - we were uncovering too much ill-behaviour on the part of the local government and various other publically-funded agencies and my life was made so uncomfortable by 'the powers that be' that eventually I had to quit, despite the miriad of positive aspects our project encapsulated.



However, for a project such as this...
politics don't necessarily enter the equation unless you want to obtain funding. All projects need money - there's no such thing as totally free. There are at least hidden expenses as well as the more obvious ones, such as publicity etc.
If we have bandwidth etc for free, that's a major headache out of the way. Now you just need staff. And that staff will not want to be out of pocket in any way so expenses in the form of a float are a neccessity. Applying for, and distributing them could be a complex matter though.
I think it's a great idea and if it transpired, as I've said before, I'm up for something like this. A business plan wouldn't be a bad idea. Certain things would need ironing out - who does what, when and how etc and to make sure everyone involved knows exactly what happens.
Failure to communicate properly is also a common factor of failure in projects like this.

I want to look at some issues raised in this thread:
Firstly the poll. There's an option missing, which is why I didn't tick anything.
Yes, my music would be available if I was contacted first AND credited. Both are important imo.

Someone mentioned that it could cause animosity - I'm not sure why that should be so? Sorry, whoever said it - I just don't understand why. Who would the animosity be between?

The subject of deep linking into tracks was mentioned. There are a few reasons why this may not be practical. The main one of course is individuals bandwidth. You could end up costing the artist a considerable sum of money if their track is accessed many more times than it might normally be, and depending on the host package the artist has with their ISP.
So yes. The presenter needs to have the tune at their disposal before broadcast I'd say.
Some sites don't support linking either, which may or may not be a problem.

It was also mentioned about having auto-jocks.
Practical, but not nice imo. There's no spontaniety, you can't take potential calls, you can't play requests... it's a completely soul-less method of broadcasting.

Programme content:
I think rather than having a mixed bag all the time, genre or style specific programmes would be a better option. Otherwise it'll end up sounding like any other station with no specific musical policy. At least with dedicated programming, target audiences know when they want to tune in and when they don't.
Programme content is important. Again, you need to know and understand your audience.
Of course, this means you would need a co-ordinator to draw up schedules keeping variety and interest in the overall output.

It was also asked what would happen if a presenter failed to show.
Well, in the world of hard-radio (ie fm, not internet) if the presenter isn't in the studio 15 minutes before his or her show, we contact a standby presenter, play a pre-record or just stand in oursleves. The latter option's my personal fave - I carry a bunch of my fave music with me just in case this happens. Which it does. A lot. So you'd need a contingency plan.
We allow the presenter to screw up twice on the trot with no reasonable excuse / reason before simply replacing them.

Funding.
Why not try to get funding?
As this is a project aimed primarily, at least at first, at KvR members and their music, the first and most obvious business to approach would be Muse. Then consider other likely businesses that may support a venture such as this. But, for any business to give any ideas the time of day, much less money, a firm plan must first be in place.


My concern would be the viability of another internet station, although this sounds like it would be targetting a specific audience which already exists.
But what I mean is, certainly in our area, people who listen to the radio, tend to listen to hard-radio cos they can get it in the car, over the stereo, on the transistor while cooking etc etc. The internet may be huge, but small fm stations seem to reach a larger audience, though not wider.
I'm currently in negotiation with a group of community players here to get a serious IR station up and running to replace our defunct fm station.
Unfortunately, several of the people that we have to deal with are the very people who wanted us closed down in the first place, so it's like swimming through treacle for us.
But I know from research that hardly anybody would listen if it went internet. They want the fm hardwire.


My word - have I forgotten anything?
Not trying to discourage anybody that wants to actually commit the time required to run something like this - I've said I'd love to set something like this up before - and hope that this time it really does come to fruition.
Just be aware that I don't think it's just gonna land in your lap. Like everything, it'll need planning, work, dedication and determination. And money. Only if you're positive you personally have all those things - no good relying on other people, each team member must know that they can personally run things if needs be - would it be wise to start setting wheels in motion.


Of course, I'm coming at it from a hard-station manager angle, but there's also the little matters of licensing.
Since the music to be played (at least at first) is submitted by the artists themselves, with written permission to play, royalty agencies shouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure whether internet stations need broadcast licenses - I shouldn't imagine so, but research into this area would be advisable before undertaking anything.



Well, that's my tuppence worth for now. Hopefully, there's some info of help here. Any questions?

[kevink]

...About the only thing I "disagree" is having the content on the server. As it's a non-issue spacewise and makes the system robust if all the content for automated playback is there, I see that as the preferred way.

If managing the disk space isn't an issue, then clearly it would be more robust to keep local copies of everything. I was just trying to make the least demanding proposal from the standpoint of whoever ends up hosting. The sort of "just in time" content loading I was talking about does have one advantage for the artists (should I have put that word in quotes? ;o), in that it allows them to transparently replace .mp3s with newer/better versions or mixes. If the whole "playlist" is going to be stored on the server, I'd strongly suggest having some means for people to update (or, perhaps more importantly, withdraw) their contributions.

[Big Karma]

How about running a station for a week/month at a time - doing a special and then seeing how it pans out from there? No point jumping in with both feet and at least if it is trialed and proves popular, you'll be able to iron out the creases before going full time?

[xander]

Sounds like all the components are there, just needs to be assembled.

Here are some thoughts:

Get a solid agreement from jmh on the bandwidth -- because you're going to need it if you're direct streaming rather than linking.

RAID arrays are cheap now and are accommodated by many motherboards, so disk storage shouldn't be any big problem.

Take ZEST up on his offer while it's still there -- you may not know what you're missing here if you don't. This kind of management is absolutely essential for any form of success.

Yes indeed -- money can be made -- Ask ZEST about some business models. Check out my friends' station -- www.RadioParadise.com -- they make a decent living just from memberships and you can peruse their business model by reading about it on their website. Ad revenue can increase over time if you persue it, so there's no need to be so pessimistic about revenue if you're willing to put the effort into it. "Build it and they will come".

Check out Traction and SAM for mixing and broadcasting. You'll want to think about offering different streams possibly -- like ogg, abacast, WMA, Monkey, etc. MP3 streaming is certainly the most popular, but not the best compared to some others, for sure.

Radio Paradise also now goes out over XMS satellite. There are some pretty great incentives to get out a broadcast over XMS currently being offered by the XMS groups who want a lot of material, though you need to start a dialogue with them soon I reckon, since they're getting more subscribers every day.

Good Luck mate!

Many Blessings for it,
Alex

[kevink]

If we have bandwidth etc for free, that's a major headache out of the way. Now you just need staff. And that staff will not want to be out of pocket in any way so expenses in the form of a float are a neccessity. Applying for, and distributing them could be a complex matter though.

then later

It was also mentioned about having auto-jocks.
Practical, but not nice imo. There's no spontaniety, you can't take potential calls, you can't play requests... it's a completely soul-less method of broadcasting.

The *only* way this will fly for more than a few days is if the whole thing can be automated. I don't want to sound cynical, but there's simply not enough ego gratification in being a web-DJ on a computer music geek web site to keep the thing running otherwise. And in this context, I don't even think it's sensible to *try* to have a human DJ - this is a collective of music makers, most of whom are unpublished elsewhere. How many of us have really listened to all the other member's projects? An automated system *can* take requests, of course, and as for spontaneity, I guess it depends on whether you subsribe to the Brian Eno school of spontaneity-through-randomness.

Funding.
Why not try to get funding?

Because it will inevitably and irretrievably f*ck things up?

KVR can probably sell enough additional advertising on the associated web pages to justify the running cost of keeping RadioKVR going, provided that the process can be automated. Selling commercial airtime will create instant investor pressure to play music with the broadest possible appeal. And I'd be a good deal more circumspect about putting my stuff up for free broadcast if I thought it was going to be intercut with commercials.

[Glassback]

kevink, what's your background in this field if you don't mind me asking?



on a sidenote - commercial radio is the spawn of satan. funding is the best way to go. that way commercialism can be avoided.

[Spe3D]

I think the funny thing is the thread, is the idea of a pirate radio station on the net - how long would that be up before the designers and the host provers were in court - 1 hour maybe less prehaps

Thankfully Glassback is in this thread who does actually know what it would take to get a real internet radio going - plus have the right motives, ideas and in the world of reality to make it work - 'if' it was actually wanted in the first place by k-v-r (muse)

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Spe3D]

Hmm... to answer this shortly...

Bandwidth is there. I won't get into details because it would most likely make you feel uncomfortable, Spe3d, but I can assure you that this side of things is very well covered. The server that hosts kingstondrums.bombsquad.org is just one of several...

Kevink Great post. This is close to one of the two systems we have available - one of our 'server guys' has been running web radios here for years, used to be somewhat of a pioneer for that stuff in this country, and hos concocted systems for this, some still in use after the rapid death of most web radios here (the damn copyright agency got carried away with their agenda) and some just waiting to be utilized.

System as in method to use, not as in system (server)? just to be clear

Best regards,

Spe3d

:O)

[Glassback]

Funding.
Why not try to get funding?

Because it will inevitably and irretrievably f*ck things up?

Why?

KVR can probably sell enough additional advertising on the associated web pages to justify the running cost of keeping RadioKVR going, provided that the process can be automated. Selling commercial airtime will create instant investor pressure to play music with the broadest possible appeal. And I'd be a good deal more circumspect about putting my stuff up for free broadcast if I thought it was going to be intercut with commercials.

Did I mention commercials? I don't reckon. I mentioned funding. BIG difference.
Funding eliminates the necessity for commercials.

[kevink]

KVR can probably sell enough additional advertising on the associated web pages to justify the running cost of keeping RadioKVR going, provided that the process can be automated. Selling commercial airtime will create instant investor pressure to play music with the broadest possible appeal. And I'd be a good deal more circumspect about putting my stuff up for free broadcast if I thought it was going to be intercut with commercials.

Did I mention commercials? I don't reckon. I mentioned funding. BIG difference.
Funding eliminates the necessity for commercials.

This is not a sarcastic question at all, but in what country to you live? In American English "funding" means money from somewhere, and 99.99% of the time the term is used to denote commercial funding. I know that there are some countries where, with enough paperwork being filed, one can get government subsidies for activities judged to be in the public interest, but in US English, at least, we would qualify the term as "public funding". In France, where I live, it's theoretically possible, but one would have to create a benevolent association, and a lot of paperwork, cross one's fingers, and wait.

[Glassback]

Funding can come from a variety of sources.
Businesses (which would be the most viable in this instance), local government, EU, private individuals...
I know - I've been doing it this way for years.
And I've never had to have a commercial on any of my stations.

All things need working on, and if you think this project can get up and running without a little work and waiting and finger-crossing and, yes, maybe even paperwork I'd encourage you to possibly think again.
Or one could just sit back, hope for the best and wait for things to happen and land in ones lap with no effort at all from anybody's part.

Where do I live? It's no secret, it's there for all to see in my sig.
You didn't answer my questions though. What's your experience in this field if you don't mind me asking? And why will funding "inevitably and irretrievably f*ck things up"?

[99]

I think the funny thing is the thread, is the idea of a pirate radio station on the net - how long would that be up before the designers and the host provers were in court - 1 hour maybe less prehaps

US law recently passed allows small internet broadcasters to operate without paying royalites until a certain 'mutually profitable' business can establish itself. This is old news in internet broadcasting circles, so where have you been?

Thankfully Glassback is in this thread who does actually know what it would take to get a real internet radio going - plus have the right motives, ideas and in the world of reality to make it work - 'if' it was actually wanted in the first place by k-v-r (muse)

Lots of good opinions in this thread & sounds like your dissing everyone except Glassback when you say that. what makes him so special?

[Glassback]

what makes.. Glassback.. so special?

And you are who exactly?

Nothing makes me special my friend, but in the context of this thread, maybe 8 years as a radio station manager might stand me in a little good stead to offer a little of my experience?
I was also pm'd and invited to the conversation by the OP.
You?