Your feelings on "impulse ethics"

[herodotus]

Let's say I feel as guilty as for using drum samples (individual hits) from a (still on the market) drumset being played by a (still alive) drummer.

You bastard.

No shit!!

You are unemploying me!! dammit!!!!

Where are the boatloads of lawyers to protect the intellectual property of drummers?

[bitcrusher]

intellectual property of drummers

thats the contradiction of the day

[herodotus]

intellectual property of drummers

thats the contradiction of the day

....ehem.....

[emdot_ambient]

intellectual property of drummers

thats the contradiction of the day

....ehem.....

Yep, you walked right into that one.

Ringo: "That's why I play the drums. They're my compensatory factor."

[ShawnG]

expensive hardware reverbs are pro devices, and the reason they are valuable to pros goes beyond the sound that they create. A pro producer whose budget can justify a lexicon is not going to throw those units away because of some impulses for a plugin sounds close. They are going to use it because thier unit is flexible in a pro studio environment, can be monitored live with no latency, and is easily adjustible to the needs of the moment a lot faster than a software solution, and it doesn't eat up the sort of cpu cycles needed by a reverb plugin. Personally I haven't found the need for simulating a hardware unit with an impulse when other reverb plugs will get you similar results with less cpu overhead. For me the ability to use impulses from real spaces is the only thing I'm personally interested in.

[Sascha Franck]

Ringo: "That's why I play the drums. They're my compensatory factor."

On a serious note, I really think there's no difference.
Hardware reverb companies could just be happy that it didn't happen earlier.

And on another serious note: When it comes to realistic sounding drums I still enjoy playing and recording with real drummers WAY more than using loops or programming my own stuff.

[PaulG]

Ummm...thanks for asking.

Yes, I do.

And it has NOTHING to do with (believe it or not) values, morals, ethics, right v. wrong, or anything like that.

More like "energy and balance" would be the term.

Similar to the way someone who studies Feng Shui would arrange furniture in a room because it's "better and clearer energy" and the way some Oriental cultures model of how the body works actually "works" better than the "medicate it" model that us Westerners tend to be force-fed...(wow, long run-on first part of sentence)

...there IS something in each person's psyche that responds to "giving back" as well as accepting - like gears that are put in motion when you give something out of thankfulness or otherwise to someone that helped you.

Again, this has nothing to do with any sort of moral, ethical, or even religious issue - it's simply how things "flow" either into, or out of, a person's life.

I noticed that for myself, when still struggling financially, took all the software, p2p stuff, etc that I didn't personally contribute to the maker or distributor for, OFF of my PC and refused to use them, not only did I feel better in general, but I started to have a bunch of more money "just show up" for some reason.

Again, not being preachey, saying I'm better or anything, just something that I think George Lucas forgot after the original Star Wars (Episode IV - A New Hope) totally forgot after the first movie back in 1977...

...trust your feelings (or your "energy"). (Logic (not the software) will always fail you.)

That's it. Thanks for letting me express this dissenting opinion and you "should" always, of course, do what's right for you.

- Paul

Reply if you want, but I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything, prove or disprove, or make anything right or wrong, or even anyone believe anything, so it may not be replied back to.

[Sascha Franck]

Interesting opinion, PaulG. I won't comment any further, but as said, it's interesting to read about another point of view.
Still, just one question: Are you using samples?
(no, this isn't meant as a trick question or whatever, just out of curiosity)

[Steven West]

I still use my SPX90, FX550, and even my trusty MU100R from Yamaha still for reverb. Then there's my faithful Roland SP808, WAVES Reverb and Steinbergs Natural Verb I use quite often in WaveLab. Then there's all Orion Platinums great reverbs on top of that, and a plethora of freebies from here including Sir SAM, Elevata and all that.

So ethically speaking... I love 'em all!

[ghost666]

No, not at all, I don't get the hardware, and the manufacturer loses nothing (I don't want hardware anyway, so I won't buy it!)

Don't the warez users use this exact argument!

I don't agree or disagree... just an observation!

[lawapa]

I noticed that for myself, when still struggling financially, took all the software, p2p stuff, etc that I didn't personally contribute to the maker or distributor for, OFF of my PC and refused to use them, not only did I feel better in general, but I started to have a bunch of more money "just show up" for some reason.

Karma? What goes around comes around? This has been around for a while. Some folks get it and some don't. Me I just try my best at "do the right thing" I miss more than I hit but I do understand the effort made is worth it.

The music industry robbed musicians/performers for years then things changed. If the karma model is valid some of this is rightfully meant for them. But if that's the case, if you steal from them it might come back at you. So "do the right thing".

[cptgone]

No, not at all, I don't get the hardware, and the manufacturer loses nothing (I don't want hardware anyway, so I won't buy it!)

Don't the warez users use this exact argument!

IMO it's not the same:
one can't tweak knobs on a impulse wav. It's not like I get the same functionality a hardware user has...

OTOH, I'm sure some warez users aren't in the market for paid software anyway, so that part of your comparison stands.

[cptgone]

[server barfed]

[emdot_ambient]

No, not at all, I don't get the hardware, and the manufacturer loses nothing (I don't want hardware anyway, so I won't buy it!)

Don't the warez users use this exact argument!

IMO it's not the same:
one can't tweak knobs on a impulse wav. It's not like I get the same functionality a hardware user has...

And I still don't think there's a legal argument against IRs coming from hardware devises. The hardware developer can patent its hardware and software, they cannot patent or copyright the imprint of a sound being passed through their gear. IRs and convolution reverbs do not replicate the electronic workings or the software processes used in hardware devices, they simply take the imprint of a sound passing through the devise and attempt to apply that imprint to something else. It's exactly the same thing as taking an FFT fingerprint of a commercially released song and applying that fingerprint to your work. You have stollen nothing, you have simply analyzed the sound of one thing and applied the result to something else. Yes, the resulting sound may be similiar to what you'd get if you passed your sound through the hardware that the IR came from, but patents apply to the design of a device, not what effect it causes.

I persist in guilt free use of IRs.

[dburgan]

I persist in guilt free use of IRs.

And persist you should, at least until the law is clarified. It may not make sense or even be fair, but I can definitely see the law being defined to protect the hardware makers. It's sort of the same kind of loosey goosey logic that says the RIAA should be compensated a few pennies per blank CDR sold because someone *might* use the CDR to pirate music.

The state of copyright law is totally fuxx0red, IMHO. And the music industry has taken it to a whole new level of FUBAR.