Hrm. I must admit, reading back to your post at the top of the page, Sleek Month, that you were using a very reasonable tone of communication. When I wrote my lengthy response, it wasn't to THAT post in particular, but to people who are tube-amp-gung-ho in general.
I don't mean to imply that you're anything less than reasonable; rather I'm just trying to advance the argument that price and noise really ARE still issues. Particularly price.
Greg
It seems like Line6 kinda screwed people over
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
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- KVRian
- 503 posts since 28 Mar, 2005 from Annapolis, MD
A common stir on this forum--amp modelling. It touches on eliteness. Guitarists take their work personally. Then it touches on the issue of hardware versus software. Always a fun subject.
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- KVRer
- 29 posts since 1 Jun, 2005
Use an amp and mic it up? ...my family complains about the 'acoustic' sound of my guitar...
but then again, I suck at guitar, which is why I like to beat on it.
Pod 2.0 is close enuff for my crappy music
but then again, I suck at guitar, which is why I like to beat on it.
Pod 2.0 is close enuff for my crappy music
kwac kwac
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- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
A guitarist who doesn't constantly slow down to accomodate incessant 64th note solos?jtxx000 wrote:at least we keep a consistant tempo
Now if only they could stay in tune for longer than 5 minutes.
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- KVRAF
- 1617 posts since 2 Dec, 2003
herodotus wrote:A guitarist who doesn't constantly slow down to accomodate incessant 64th note solos?jtxx000 wrote:at least we keep a consistant tempo
Now if only they could stay in tune for longer than 5 minutes.
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- KVRian
- 637 posts since 5 Sep, 2001 from Hollywood, Ca. one block East of the Jack in the Box
Hah!I don't mean to imply that you're anything less than reasonable; rather I'm just trying to advance the argument that price and noise really ARE still issues. Particularly price.
Never let it be said that I am anything other than unreasonable!
It just seems that these days modelling is being sold very hard and bought by almost everyone.
Modelling, by it's nature is a digital process. It's hard to explain (and the physics are beyond me), but in the modelling process , you're applying the sound of frying electronics to the sound, wheras the analog stuff (be it tube or SS) is passing the signal through actual frying electronics.Of course the GT2 is a modeler. It's just not a digital modeler. What the heck else would you call it? It emulates an amp, cab, and mic placement. There's no other word for it except "simulator" but that's just rhetoric.
It's kinda like the difference between a painting and a picture of a painting.
Modelling is being sold as the low-cost easy use solution, but that's not necesarily true, especially when people are mentioning $600 rack pods and $1700 heads.
Well, I can assure you that it does work.Your 'isolation' cab surely wasn't free. It requires HAVING a spare cab to begin with, and if you're honestly saying that regular foam will properly isolate the sound then I have to question your honesty, because regular foam will NOT accomplish the job. Meaning, you need specialty foam, too.
My foam isn't "miracle foam", it's just some 4" thick foam that an old roommate found being discarded. No cost.
The cabinet I used for the isolation cab, as well as the 10" speaker and baffle are parts from dead amps that friends were discarding. No cost.
Yeah, modelling "reproduces" more sounds in a single unit, but with one marshall and 3 different values of preamp tubes, I can record every kinda sound from superclean country twang to punk and metal.
...and speaking of price, the tube amps appreciate in value. How about those pods? I mean, wasn't this thread started by someone who's pissed because his pod is now outdated?
Plus, my rig is modular
. I can swap out speakers, mics or amps for an infinite number of sounds. With a pod you get what you buy. You aren't really going to be changing speakers or mics on those, eh? Of course, the ironic thing about all of this is that 90% of the stuff I've posted to this point was recorded with the Sansamp gt2 and Trademark 60 running direct because it took me a while to work out the whole iso cab/amp tweak thing.
-S.
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- KVRAF
- 1906 posts since 5 Feb, 2005 from UK - Stafford/Lancaster (uni)
Argh, but thats what the pod, vetta, flextone etc were designed for!You aren't really going to be changing speakers or mics on those, eh?
Its for just that purpose, to have instant "nearly realistic" tone that u can change at the touch of a button. The variax is a fine example, you adjust the mic placement by turning a knob etc. The model's will never be perfect (well, maybe oneday) but they come close enough, most of the general public wouldnt be able to tell the diff.
But saying all that i have never realy used that many tube amps, and i am looking for a cheap amp head on ebay all the time but only for the option of being able to mic up a speaker if i so wish but imo its harder to mic stuff up than it is to switch on a "pod" or flextone and have hundreds of 'amps' in one box.
As for the original post, u were talkin BS! ..imo. U cant ask for a hardware upgrade 2 years or so later! Thats just foolish!
WoJ
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
All right, despite having my doubts about the foam, I'll have to take your word on it now that you insist. 
Still, not everybody has a spare cab around and even plywood/MDF ain't cheap.
Sure, your amp may be quasi-modular, but not truly. The average person isn't switching tubes, and even if they do, the new tubes add additional cost (remembering that cost is one of my arguments). Ditto for cabs and mics. Even if you're modeling (with something like the Atomic Reactor or whatever it was called-- an amp engineered to house digital modelers), you can still do it with different speakers and mics. Which comes back to the basic premise-- tubes are really the only thing making it different. You know and I know that tubes are just another technology and don't contain any magic. If they did, we could just go through tube preamps to get that magic tube sound, but it's not that easy.
Regarding modeling-- What you are referring to is digitally modeled, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other forms of modeling. It's only a word, after all. If it makes you feel more comfortable that I'm using 'correct' terminology, I will hereby refer to GT2 technology as "simulation" rather than "model". Can't promise I'll ALWAYS remember to, but I'll try my best.
The crux of my argument, and the one that still hasn't really been addressed, is that once you've recorded your sound and put it in the mix and engineered it, most listeners and even most guitarists won't really notice whether you've used tube or modeled technology. Serve the song, and if that means having access to dozens of different amps (because one day an AC30 might be required and the next day a Fender Twin is what's going to cut the mustard) then your options are really only modeling or actually owning all those amps.
Now, just to be fair, I'll admit that many people, myself included, really only end up using a handful (rather than dozens) of sounds anyhow. But I still don't have even a handful of amps to choose from.
The secondary argument (still ahead of cost and variety issues) was that not everybody has the right technology and environment (not to mention know-how) to properly record an amp, anyhow. I have no doubt that at least much of the time (certainly not "all" since people out there are creative and smart!) my GDI21, a handful of impules, and some EQ, will accomplish a much better-sounding job than the person with the real tube amp could accomplish. A blind sound test asking not "which one was recorded from a real amp?" (people will hear the room reflections--not a good thing, in many cases--and know that it was the 'real' one) but rather, "Which one sounds better?" and people most often say, "I dunno, they both sound fine". If the person with the real amp has a particularly resonant room and didn't take the right precautions, many people will pick the simulated amp.
Conversely, if someone takes the time with their amp and puts it in a decent room (or at least a room with the right sound!), mics it up properly, and does effective post-recording processing on it, it WILL sound better for many songs than someone who just dialed up a preset on the GT2 and recorded it directly with no extra processing. It really does come down a lot to the skill of the musician/producer than it does to the technology used.
On a related point, people don't seem to consider their tone in the context of the song or as recorded medium. If I have a powerful amp and I crank it, the mere fact that it has a PHYSICAL presence and is imposing and wonderful on my ears will trigger "warm fuzzy" responses that will make me think more highly of the tone. Standing in a room doing your best Pete Townsend and loving it doesn't mean that the tone translates well on 'tape', though.
So many guitarists will obsess over their tone, until finally discovering something wonderful. But they've made the mistake of thinking that hearing the guitar (and ONLY the guitar) is the be-all end-all. It doesn't matter if your tone is brilliant when the other instruments aren't active. You could go to play in the song and discover that it suddenly sounds like crap because the right range of frequencies aren't being used to complement the drums, keys, voice, etc. A beautiful tone and an impressive presence when you plug into a great amp and crank it doesn't mean squat if it doesn't fit the song. It's good for 'alone-time' wanking and that's about it.
Greg
Still, not everybody has a spare cab around and even plywood/MDF ain't cheap.Sure, your amp may be quasi-modular, but not truly. The average person isn't switching tubes, and even if they do, the new tubes add additional cost (remembering that cost is one of my arguments). Ditto for cabs and mics. Even if you're modeling (with something like the Atomic Reactor or whatever it was called-- an amp engineered to house digital modelers), you can still do it with different speakers and mics. Which comes back to the basic premise-- tubes are really the only thing making it different. You know and I know that tubes are just another technology and don't contain any magic. If they did, we could just go through tube preamps to get that magic tube sound, but it's not that easy.
Regarding modeling-- What you are referring to is digitally modeled, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other forms of modeling. It's only a word, after all. If it makes you feel more comfortable that I'm using 'correct' terminology, I will hereby refer to GT2 technology as "simulation" rather than "model".
Can't promise I'll ALWAYS remember to, but I'll try my best.The crux of my argument, and the one that still hasn't really been addressed, is that once you've recorded your sound and put it in the mix and engineered it, most listeners and even most guitarists won't really notice whether you've used tube or modeled technology. Serve the song, and if that means having access to dozens of different amps (because one day an AC30 might be required and the next day a Fender Twin is what's going to cut the mustard) then your options are really only modeling or actually owning all those amps.
Now, just to be fair, I'll admit that many people, myself included, really only end up using a handful (rather than dozens) of sounds anyhow. But I still don't have even a handful of amps to choose from.
The secondary argument (still ahead of cost and variety issues) was that not everybody has the right technology and environment (not to mention know-how) to properly record an amp, anyhow. I have no doubt that at least much of the time (certainly not "all" since people out there are creative and smart!) my GDI21, a handful of impules, and some EQ, will accomplish a much better-sounding job than the person with the real tube amp could accomplish. A blind sound test asking not "which one was recorded from a real amp?" (people will hear the room reflections--not a good thing, in many cases--and know that it was the 'real' one) but rather, "Which one sounds better?" and people most often say, "I dunno, they both sound fine". If the person with the real amp has a particularly resonant room and didn't take the right precautions, many people will pick the simulated amp.
Conversely, if someone takes the time with their amp and puts it in a decent room (or at least a room with the right sound!), mics it up properly, and does effective post-recording processing on it, it WILL sound better for many songs than someone who just dialed up a preset on the GT2 and recorded it directly with no extra processing. It really does come down a lot to the skill of the musician/producer than it does to the technology used.
On a related point, people don't seem to consider their tone in the context of the song or as recorded medium. If I have a powerful amp and I crank it, the mere fact that it has a PHYSICAL presence and is imposing and wonderful on my ears will trigger "warm fuzzy" responses that will make me think more highly of the tone. Standing in a room doing your best Pete Townsend and loving it doesn't mean that the tone translates well on 'tape', though.
So many guitarists will obsess over their tone, until finally discovering something wonderful. But they've made the mistake of thinking that hearing the guitar (and ONLY the guitar) is the be-all end-all. It doesn't matter if your tone is brilliant when the other instruments aren't active. You could go to play in the song and discover that it suddenly sounds like crap because the right range of frequencies aren't being used to complement the drums, keys, voice, etc. A beautiful tone and an impressive presence when you plug into a great amp and crank it doesn't mean squat if it doesn't fit the song. It's good for 'alone-time' wanking and that's about it.
Greg
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- KVRian
- 637 posts since 5 Sep, 2001 from Hollywood, Ca. one block East of the Jack in the Box
...that's what the smiley was about. On one hand, it gets all paradoxical around this point, and any point can be considered valid or invalid.Quote:
You aren't really going to be changing speakers or mics on those, eh?
Argh, but thats what the pod, vetta, flextone etc were designed for!
...but on the other hand, it's like when the really programmable synths came out...Dx7's (or the later "all-in-one" workstations), say, and people started going:"Finally, flexibility in a synth! Now I don't have to dial in a frickin' patch every time I want to change a sound!"
...and where did that lead us?
Well, people came to the realization that that supposed freedom was actually very limiting, and now, in the 21st century, we have people fantasizing about, and for those who can afford them, BUYING vintage or new modular synths while those old "super synths" decay neglected.
I dunno. I see the same sort of thing here. I consider myself to be using modular amplification with an infinite array of real(!) analog modules.
Want to change cabinets? Change cabinets. Want to change amp models? Then do it!
...it's the very latest in technology
Well, I've been hearing that stuff all through this thread, but you know what? We're not the general public. We're the musicians. For better or worse, we are the artistic fringe. We have chosen to work in the arts and aspire to create something excellent.The model's will never be perfect (well, maybe oneday) but they come close enough, most of the general public wouldnt be able to tell the diff.
You know, it just seems odd that the response to someone being asked about why they use a certain amp is:"Because nobody will notice/complain". Not exactly taking pride in the work, eh?
Maybe the first time, but not once your setup is in place. At this point, all I do is turn off the mute on the mic channel, turn on the amp, and I'm ready to record.But saying all that i have never realy used that many tube amps, and i am looking for a cheap amp head on ebay all the time but only for the option of being able to mic up a speaker if i so wish but imo its harder to mic stuff up than it is to switch on a "pod" or flextone and have hundreds of 'amps' in one box.
If you'd like help finding some sort of cheapish tube thing, I'd be happy to help...just let me know what you're looking for. I've been in pursuit of this stuff for a long time, and know pretty well which of the lower-cost stuff is going to be worthwhile.
You're actually in luck, because lots of companies have started making inexpensive low-wattage tube amps since the home recording boom started, so there's more of them out there now than there ever were before.
-S.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Note, I realized that I just repeated/reworded my earlier arguments, but sometimes a rewording is what's needed.
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- KVRian
- 637 posts since 5 Sep, 2001 from Hollywood, Ca. one block East of the Jack in the Box
Hah! Start to type out of boredom, and look what happens: No more boredom!
I'll lend you one.
For some reason, I always seem to have them. People just give me their dead stuff ("Duuude. I just blew up my Peavey 1x15 bass combo. I'm keeping the speaker, but do you want the box?").
Strangely enough, I have a line6 4x12 sitting empty in my garage. Make a couple cuts, add some foam, plug those silly holes in the baffle with a sheet of 3/4" ply, and you could have something!
No cost!
Man, that pisses me off! I could have been getting such a better tone all that time!
Bastards!
...but the other great part of the new Modular Amp Technology© ( ) is that you can buy it one piece at a time, so there's no hefty initial outlay.
(Note rule 1-Any amp over $500=gay.)
BTW: Here's something I found a while back that looks interesting...probably doesn't work so well, but still, great idea!
http://www.randallamplifiers.com/produc ... /index.asp
It's not solid state that grates on my nerves, it's digital modelling.
-S.
Well, with the iso cab, all I really hear is what comes out of my monitors, which is exactly what goes to tape, same as when I record the gt2.On a related point, people don't seem to consider their tone in the context of the song or as recorded medium. If I have a powerful amp and I crank it, the mere fact that it has a PHYSICAL presence and is imposing and wonderful on my ears will trigger "warm fuzzy" responses that will make me think more highly of the tone. Standing in a room doing your best Pete Townsend and loving it doesn't mean that the tone translates well on 'tape', though.
All right, despite having my doubts about the foam, I'll have to take your word on it now that you insist. Still, not everybody has a spare cab around and even plywood/MDF ain't cheap.
I'll lend you one.
For some reason, I always seem to have them. People just give me their dead stuff ("Duuude. I just blew up my Peavey 1x15 bass combo. I'm keeping the speaker, but do you want the box?").
Strangely enough, I have a line6 4x12 sitting empty in my garage. Make a couple cuts, add some foam, plug those silly holes in the baffle with a sheet of 3/4" ply, and you could have something!
No cost!
I know they aren't, hence my crusade! I've been playing tube amps and marshalls for almost 20 years now, and just learned the 12au7/12at7 trick last year!The average person isn't switching tubes, and even if they do, the new tubes add additional cost (remembering that cost is one of my arguments). Ditto for cabs and mics.
Man, that pisses me off! I could have been getting such a better tone all that time!
Bastards!
...but the other great part of the new Modular Amp Technology© (
) is that you can buy it one piece at a time, so there's no hefty initial outlay.(Note rule 1-Any amp over $500=gay.)
BTW: Here's something I found a while back that looks interesting...probably doesn't work so well, but still, great idea!
http://www.randallamplifiers.com/produc ... /index.asp
Hah! If only you knew. I'm always pissing off my tube purist friends pointing out that there is nothing organic, natural or magical about tubes. I own and use a bunch of transitor amps also...Which comes back to the basic premise-- tubes are really the only thing making it different. You know and I know that tubes are just another technology and don't contain any magic.
It's not solid state that grates on my nerves, it's digital modelling.
-S.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
It might be expensive to ship me a cab to Canada. Cheers for the offer, though!
I've been looking at the small 'home studio' tube amps because I DO think there's something to a 'real' amp; however, the good ones are just as expensive as a full-on amp.
Still, hopefully as time goes by there will be more options for us.
Greg
Cheers for the offer, though!I've been looking at the small 'home studio' tube amps because I DO think there's something to a 'real' amp; however, the good ones are just as expensive as a full-on amp.
Still, hopefully as time goes by there will be more options for us.Greg
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- KVRian
- 637 posts since 5 Sep, 2001 from Hollywood, Ca. one block East of the Jack in the Box
Well, there are some way expensive ones out there, but there are cheap ones, also.I've been looking at the small 'home studio' tube amps because I DO think there's something to a 'real' amp; however, the good ones are just as expensive as a full-on amp. Still, hopefully as time goes by there will be more options for us.
These are well regarded, for instance:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... eName=WDVW
...again, that's got a 12ax7. Get a $12 12au7 and the amp will open up and have more headroom, though sometimes the full distorto is nice.
...it's also using an 8" speaker. It'll have a very different sound with either a 10" or 12".
This is the kinda crap I bid on:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 47623&rd=1
A lot of times, stuff like this will go for under $50.
..and jeez, man! You're in Canada! Land of the Traynor! If I were you, I'd hit the pawn shops looking for those things. They can still be had on the cheap, but they're getting more collectable all the time.
Traynors rock!
Some of the '60's tube Kent© amps were Canadian, too. Some of those can be had for next to nothing and sound awesome.
-S.
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- KVRAF
- 4222 posts since 23 Feb, 2004 from Tucson Arizona USA
Solid state amplifiers do not tend to remain useful as the components age. Tube amplifiers often actually improve with age.Sleek Month wrote:There is nothing organic, natural or magical about tubes.
This is why I still use my Fender Deluxe, and why I don't even remember what became of my Yamaha 212.