Apple ditches IBM power PC chip and will use Intel.

[goofrider]

1) Altivec optimized stuff will a lot harder to port. Which is most audio stuff. My guess is emulation of altivec instructions won't be fast enough.

Looks like they don't even try to emulate Altivec in Rosetta - I'm guessing Rosetta presents to the OS as an CPU which does not support Altivec, so well-behaved apps that check for Altivec support and fall back to straight FPU sequences should be OK. (I think emulating PPC FPU on x87 FPU would be faster than emulating PPC Altivec on any combination of x87/SSE).

Some light on this:

As far as I can see, the most used AltiVec code for audio processing is Apple's Veclib. Veclib is a library of highly optimzed routines, such as FFT/iFFT. In addition, Apple offers super fast vector routines for matrix operations (blast), trigonometric functions (vecfpsomething) and stuff. As long as you use these, you do not have to port anything, because these libraries have already been maintained in SSE/SSE2 flavour. They are simply available (for free, btw.).

Next, a bit I gathered from CoreAudio team, just like planned for Longhorn, Mactel will not use the Intel FPUs. All floating point calculation will be done in the SSE layer, which is supposed to be a dramatic speed boost even for scalar operations. Add to that, the Apple compiler does auto vectorization, so that your scalar code will benefit from parallel processing whenever possible.

I guess the minimum requirements for a Mactel cpu is the availability of SSE2. While that's probably still a joke compared to AltiVec, there's kinda migration guide on developer.apple.com that has a conversion table. I suppose that there'll be an alternative for most vector calculations pretty soon, so that the developers can mostly just copy/paste the stuff if they have custom vector code.

One thing where AltiVec sucks is 64 bit - it simply can't do this. AFAIK SSE2 does double precision... this is something I'm really looking forward to, because a lot of my dsp code is 64 bit and I couldn't vectorize it at all... (well, I don't have to on a G5 because of its 2 FPUs)

Cheers,

Urs

Damn nice post.

So my question is:

1. If OSX/x86 use SSE2 rather than x87 for FP ops, wouldn't it be possible that Rosetta can have some slick JIT optimization that autovectorize G3 binaries to SSE2 operations?

2. You mentioned VecLib. Presumably, Rosetta is like Linux-on-Linux Qemu -- there's an x86 binary emulator, and then there's an 1-to-1 OSX/PPC API to OSX/x86 API userland translation layer. If an OSX/PPC app calls an OSX API function, it should just be translated to the equilvalent API call in OSX/x86 and handled natively. So, if an OSX/PPC app calls VecLib in Rosetta, wouldn't it be translated and executed natively in x86 with all its SSE2-optimized glory??? (I know that's a pretty big assumption though since the endianess issue can make vector translation a lot more complicated.)

Then maybe Altivec emulation is just not neccessary at all.

[BONES]

Someone explain me , please.
When was Jobs lying about Mac performance: Now or Before???

Its easy to tell - his lips move.

the AMD alleged superiority, well perhaps it´s true. But you should go to a store near you and try a laptop equiped with Centrino Sonoma 2.0Ghz or more, i´m sure your FX55 bites the dust at first round and stay put for a long while.

What's "Sonoma"? I have a Dell M70 at the moment with a 2GHz Pentium-M, would that qualify? If so I'll install ORION on it and run some real-world tests against my Socket 754 Athlon64 3200, although ithe M70 doesn't seem any faster than the M60 I used to have.

How that a G5 with any feline OS known to men at the same buffer size sports almost the double latency than a crapy pute with a crapy OS??? perhaps because the feline OS is a bucket load of eye candy bloatware.

Or maybe its just badly written drivers for on or the other. There are just too many variables to be able to nail anything down to a particular cause. I don't mind OSX, although there are half-a-dozen Window Managers for Linux that I prefer. Its the hardware that sucks.

[Sascha Franck]

I'm a bit amazed about all that CPU hype thing.

Sure, while the current G5 CPUs might be running too hot to suit a notebook, they're working pretty fine in the dual G5 desktops. CPU-wise those machines are true powerhorses, at least when running a more or less properly optimized application such as Logic.

For me it's pretty much more about anything else but CPUs and the OS.

I can't find a machine with 3 PCI slots, 2 internal HDD slots and 1 single CD/DVD drive to be competitive at all.
Those are specs almost any stock PC is really laughing about.
Especially in the movie/audio department, people DEMAND huge amounts of HDD space without having to buy expensive external FW drives (not to forget that their bandwith still isn't as great as on a properly configured S-ATA controller).

When working with the local conservatory's dual G5s I am still constantly amazed about the CPU horsepower - it's the less than mediocre disk throughput making me wonder. I mean, how comes I can run 2x the audio tracks on my 6 year old (otherwise completely outdated) former audio PC without any hassle?
And while I never experienced disk throughput problems on my own projects, people working with large, diskstreaming sample library projects certainly are.
Just run a project with a huge choir section and a complexed orchestral arrangement on a Mac and you'll find yourself to start bouncing to stereo mixes soon.
IMO there's a demand for high disk throughput and massive storage options straight inside a machine.
Regarding that Apple is way more behind than in the CPU department.

And why in the world would I have to do a freaking image first when copying a CD?
On my Windoze boxes I just slap in another CD/DVD drive for a meager 20 bucks or so and am happily up and running.

Also, aren't DSP cards the tools of trade these days?
I just configured a (Nuendo-based) DAW for a friend, he's running 2 UADs, 1 PoCo plus some Motu PCI interface. And he's even planning on another PoCo.
How the f**k would you do this with a Mac?

Really, for me it's way less about the CPUs (of course it'd be nice if they were cheaper, required less fan movements and were suitable for an up to date powerbook), it's about the rest of the machine, which certainly isn't up to any modern standards.

But maybe they will even allow for more PCI and HDD slots once the cooling problem is solved... so the Intel move might probably be a smart one in the end.

[goofrider]

Someone explain me , please.
When was Jobs lying about Mac performance: Now or Before???

Its easy to tell - his lips move.

To be fair, everyone lies about benchmarks: Intel, AMD, ATI, nVidia, Sony, Microsoft, IBM....

the AMD alleged superiority, well perhaps it´s true. But you should go to a store near you and try a laptop equiped with Centrino Sonoma 2.0Ghz or more, i´m sure your FX55 bites the dust at first round and stay put for a long while.

What's "Sonoma"? I have a Dell M70 at the moment with a 2GHz Pentium-M, would that qualify? If so I'll install ORION on it and run some real-world tests against my Socket 754 Athlon64 3200, although ithe M70 doesn't seem any faster than the M60 I used to have.

Sonoma is the Intel 915/G chipset for Centrino, which includes:
- Intel Graphics Media Processor 900
- 533FSB with DDR2 (up to 2GB), and PCI-E support
- High Definition Audio
- SATA
- Intel WiFi Support
- Power Optimized FSB

[John Vulich]

Who gives a f**k how fast/up-to-date your machine is?

I suppose anybody that wants to use CPU draining software synths.

[John Vulich]

I'm probably going to buy a PC laptop until Apple release an Intel powerbook, then I'll sell the f**king thing for whatever peanuts I can, in my opinion Windows is a f**king joke. Exactly the reason why you think laptops are for studio work.

The joke is Apple/IBM being 2 years behind Intel in the Laptop department... that and G5 Powerbooks that catch fire during testing.

Now that's funny

[John Vulich]

...in my opinion Windows is a f**king joke.

without the funny punchline.

Don't know what you guys think is so funny. All of my friends that have Macs have far more problems with their systems than I ever do. Since Win XP, the Windows platform has been very stable. I've had one system crash in the last 10 months.

Have you guys ever even used a PC running XP for any lenght of time to be able to judge it properly?

[BONES]

Its an Intel 915PM but the rest of it seems to match what you've listed. I'll load it up and test it when I get back from Canberra in a couple of days but I can't see it being anywhere near my Athlon64.

[John Vulich]

Dude. Audiomulch runs on Windows, not on OSX. That's the only reason anyone needs to stay on Windows.

And Total Commander too!

[ericj23]

wow - a fellow total commander user

[goofrider]

I'm a bit amazed about all that CPU hype thing.

Sure, while the current G5 CPUs might be running too hot to suit a notebook, they're working pretty fine in the dual G5 desktops. CPU-wise those machines are true powerhorses, at least when running a more or less properly optimized application such as Logic.

They're not **working fine**, they require liquid cooling. Prescott is too hot for notebook. G5 is too hot to be on the desktop, even. Now with a CPU core as hot as Prescott and Intel still managed to make air-cooled dual-core Prescott, then the G5 is just plain unacceptable thermal-wise.

I'm pretty sure Logic is Altivec-optimized. Altivec no doubt is the vector champ, but even G5 still has relatively poor integer performance.

I can't find a machine with 3 PCI slots, 2 internal HDD slots and 1 single CD/DVD drive to be competitive at all.
Those are specs almost any stock PC is really laughing about.
Especially in the movie/audio department, people DEMAND huge amounts of HDD space without having to buy expensive external FW drives (not to forget that their bandwith still isn't as great as on a properly configured S-ATA controller).

Actually Apple is doing the right thing there. With the power consumption of today's CPU, video card and HDD, 3 PCI cards and 2 HDD bays are actually ooptimal. Just that most PCs have 6 PCI slots doesn't mean you can fill them all up without voltage irregularity, timing issues and airflow problems. Most PC cases today still stack several 3.5" HDD bays together, and with today's 7200-10000 RPM drives, they'll overheat very quickly. Apple designs really good cases with excellent thermal designs.

You can gete an external firewire or SATA enclosure for $40-60. They're pretty affordable and it'll reduce the chance of overheating or voltage issues inside the computer itself.

When working with the local conservatory's dual G5s I am still constantly amazed about the CPU horsepower - it's the less than mediocre disk throughput making me wonder. I mean, how comes I can run 2x the audio tracks on my 6 year old (otherwise completely outdated) former audio PC without any hassle?
And while I never experienced disk throughput problems on my own projects, people working with large, diskstreaming sample library projects certainly are.
Just run a project with a huge choir section and a complexed orchestral arrangement on a Mac and you'll find yourself to start bouncing to stereo mixes soon.
IMO there's a demand for high disk throughput and massive storage options straight inside a machine.
Regarding that Apple is way more behind than in the CPU department.

Macs uses IDE/SATA interfaces just like PCs, and uses PC drives. So it's probably not a hardware disk I/O issue. You didn't state detail specs of each setup so I can speculate no further.

And why in the world would I have to do a freaking image first when copying a CD?
On my Windoze boxes I just slap in another CD/DVD drive for a meager 20 bucks or so and am happily up and running.

Did u try Toast or DiscBlaze? Did you use Windows built-in feature to copy CDs? I didn't even know it can do that. (I hate built-in features anyways, I always find better 3rd-party tools). It'd be an unfair comparison if u used some 3rd-party apps bundled with your burner to copy CD on windows.

Also, aren't DSP cards the tools of trade these days?
I just configured a (Nuendo-based) DAW for a friend, he's running 2 UADs, 1 PoCo plus some Motu PCI interface. And he's even planning on another PoCo.
How the f**k would you do this with a Mac?

Use PowerCore Firewire and MOTU Firewire interface, plus UAD cards. It'll be comparable. It's not impossible. BTW if u load your friend's PC up will 4 PCI cards, I hope you added an extra fan or 2 and upgraded to a solid PSU as well. I hope that you didn't install 2 hard drives right on top of each other either, they get REALLY HOT.

If u were that upset about the PowerMac G5, why didn't u just get a dual-Xeon/Opeteron? The price and vectore performance are comparable, and integar performance is obviously stellar. Of course dual-core Athlon64/P4 today are even better choices.

[Jeremy_NSL]

Pentium-M is a GREAT laptop CPU, but its not a threat to A64 or AFX performance on the desktop. Why do you think Intel is so lukewarm on marketing it for desktop? Its not that competitive, in price (motherboards are terribly expensive) or performance.

That said Intel's next major cpu revision (in a few years time) is supposed to be based on the Pentium-M and taking it to the next level for desktop-use.

[goofrider]

Its an Intel 915PM but the rest of it seems to match what you've listed. I'll load it up and test it when I get back from Canberra in a couple of days but I can't see it being anywhere near my Athlon64.

You probly have Sonoma. Sorry I just cut-and-paste the spec from somewhere so the model # may not be exact. 915PM sounds right. I thought i915 and i915G sounded wrong anyways since it's a model # for an old intel P3 chipset.

basically, the big differentiator being old Centrino chipset has 400FSB and the new one has 533FSB. If you have 533FSB then it's probably Sonoma.

Athlon64 varies a lot in L2 cache size, dual ch DDR (socket 939) also add 10% in performance. Dothan has 2 different L2 cache size too I believe (I can be wrong though). So please consider these differences for fairness. The Dothan core Pentium M should be pretty competitive with Athlon 64 clock-for-clock.

[Sascha Franck]

Actually Apple is doing the right thing there. With the power consumption of today's CPU, video card and HDD, 3 PCI cards and 2 HDD bays are actually ooptimal. Just that most PCs have 6 PCI slots doesn't mean you can fill them all up without voltage irregularity, timing issues and airflow problems. Most PC cases today still stack several 3.5" HDD bays together, and with today's 7200-10000 RPM drives, they'll overheat very quickly. Apple designs really good cases with excellent thermal designs.

See, my old audio PC still has 4 HDDs inside. No heating problems, no PSU issues, no nothing.
And mind you, it's a pretty much hot running Athlon Thunderbird 1GHz.

You can gete an external firewire or SATA enclosure for $40-60. They're pretty affordable and it'll reduce the chance of overheating or voltage issues inside the computer itself.

I DO have a bunch of external drives, still I prefer to keep anything relevant inside the box.
Not to forget that FW still isn't as good bandwith-wise and external SATA would require to use one of the PCI slots.

Macs uses IDE/SATA interfaces just like PCs, and uses PC drives. So it's probably not a hardware disk I/O issue. You didn't state detail specs of each setup so I can speculate no further.

I'm sure it's an OSX issue, too.
OS9 was performing noticeably better on older G4s.
FWIW, Logic is even behaving worse than SX in terms of audio track performance. So much about the benefits of working closely together with the OS makers...
The Macs I'm using at the conservatory are 2x2 G5s with one stock drive and an additional Seagate (7200RPM).
My old audio machine is an Athlon Thunderbird 1GHz running on an Asus A7V 133 Pro. Harddisks are 2 Maxtors (audio and samples), 1 IBM (system and programs) and one WD (additional things) (all at 7200RPM).

Did u try Toast or DiscBlaze? Did you use Windows built-in feature to copy CDs? I didn't even know it can do that. (I hate built-in features anyways, I always find better 3rd-party tools). It'd be an unfair comparison if u used some 3rd-party apps bundled with your burner to copy CD on windows.

I'm not talking about applications but about the absence of any second CD/DVD drive on Macs.
I'm using Toast on OSX and Nero 6 on Windows - but as said, doesn't matter.

Use PowerCore Firewire and MOTU Firewire interface, plus UAD cards.

Tests have proven that FW interfaces still don't deliver as much bandwith as one might like to have for large multitracking projects. Probably fine for pure tracking, but clogging the CPU more than proper PCI interfaces. Usually you have to work at higher latencies (my own experiences somewhat prove this, but I've done no hardcore tests).

Also, why would I have to switch cards if I was buying a new computer?
Apple has completely lost on this.
If you read the LUG (Logic Users Group) and the RME forums you will notice that older G5s won't work properly with UADs while newer models won't work with RMEs (and partially M-Audio) cards.
Ridiculous. I never had the slightest problems with them in any PC.

It's not impossible. BTW if u load your friend's PC up will 4 PCI cards, I hope you added an extra fan or 2 and upgraded to a solid PSU as well. I hope that you didn't install 2 hard drives right on top of each other either, they get REALLY HOT.

I installed one extra front fan, but it hardly ever turns on (it's temperature controlled).
And I installed 3 HDDs in the machine. Obviously not next to each other. But as it's a big tower there's no space issues.

If u were that upset about the PowerMac G5, why didn't u just get a dual-Xeon/Opeteron? The price and vectore performance are comparable, and integar performance is obviously stellar. Of course dual-core Athlon64/P4 today are even better choices.

In the conservatory we're working with Logic.
No way to even think about PCs. Unfortunately. As well as it's unfortunate for me... my next music machine has to be a Mac, as I'm a die-hard Logic addict.
That's why I seriously hope the Mac situation is getting better. For now my current machine is sufficient (running Logic 5.5.1 PC), but I'm allready running into overloads frequently and realtime bounce is a true PITA.
I could use SX 3 (which I own as well), but it's incredibly inferior in any terms of handling and efficiency.

[egbert]

Looks like the post I saw (somewhere -- I thought it was in this thread but I can't find it now) about the falloff in business at Apple stores (down from 250 to 100 walkin customers per day in one instance according to the poster's friend who works in the store) is on the money.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/09 ... les_chill/

Another thread on all this on the Nuendo forums.

http://forum.nuendo.com/phpbb2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0