Bass or guitar?

[Sascha Franck]

I once had a fretless guitar - just ripped the frets out of an old axe that I didn't use anymore. Sustain was way less than stellar (because it's been an ultra cheap guitar), but the sounds were nice. Unfortunately that guitar broke at one day, so I can't post any examples.
You need to forget about your bread and butter barré chords though, but it's just cool for some triads and stuff - and of course for lead lines too.

I wouldn't recommend a fretless guitar for a beginner though.
And btw, I wouldn't recommend a 7-string or a baritone guitar either.

Just get a plain 6-string for cheap and see how you like it. If you buy it used you can probably sell it without much of a loss shouldn't you like it.

[cptgone]

Oh! BTW: I know that guitars can sound guite different because of different pickups etc. What about bass'? How different can they sound without any effects etc.? Are there some bass' which are designed to some specific kind of music or something?

There's a VERY easy way to assess this for yourself: go to a music shop and try the Line6 Variax Bass. Try the different sounds you can choose with the model selector knob.

About the baritone thing: I'm told you can mess around with the tuning of a Variax through the software.

About the fretless thing: fretless is cool, it allows glissando's, but it's also hard to play.

[jens]

Also, it's not a totally exclusive idea. You can always play a guitar with a slide.

not the same thing...

(I play both b.t.w.)

[jens]

There are fretless guitars as well... Check out what Tim Donahue does with his fretless 6-string.

http://www.virtuosityone.com/donahue/

you are correct but they are rare and expensive...

[darcyb62]

I thought there were fretless guitars, but I wasn't certain. I haven't seen one in person, and even after visiting that web site, I still have no idea what one sounds like. Sadly, I couldn't find any audio clips on that site. If you happen to know where some free audio clips are, I would like to hear them.


thanks,
McLilith

http://www.unfretted.com/loader.php?LIN ... %20%D8grim

[Kraku]

I wouldn't recommend a fretless guitar for a beginner though.
And btw, I wouldn't recommend a 7-string or a baritone guitar either.

No fretless for me thank you I know they must be quite hard to play. 7 string is not for me either, I know it for sure, but what's the thing with the baritone guitar? Why would you recommend a regular guitar over a baritone?

[Hernan]

I love bass, but for getting new musical ideas I think I prefer guitar. It's like having a little orchestra at your fingertips. The nylon string acoustic (formerly known as catgut acoustic) has a lot of expressive possibilities.

Which don't include Marilyn Manson type stuff, I'm afraid.

L

[Sascha Franck]

Why would you recommend a regular guitar over a baritone?

A) You would have some "classic" sound imagnations you could rely on. So it might be easier to learn.
Open string chords *will* sound extremely fat on a baritone guitar - but they will sound completely different from what you might identify as some "classic" guitar sound.

B) As said before, you can easily get your hands on a used plain guitar to check it out. If you don't like it, you resell it. Easy.
Quite a different thing with a baritone. It'll be more expensive to buy and tougher to get rid off too.

C) A baritone won't be as easy to play as the distance between the frets is larger (they have a larger scaling).

[ugo]

before i start, for what you may feel its worth, i may as well say that i've been a bassist for 15 years, i've played guitar on and off (played not studied, so i still suck) for a good number of years too, and i was a professional luthier (bass and guitar repair and construction) for 10 years. (in comparison, synths are the "new" thing in my life since i've only been seriously using them for around 7 years.)

You can process a guitar to sound like a bass but you can't make a bass sound like a guitar.

you can process either in an attempt to emulate the other, and the results tend to be equally underwhelming. sure you can sneek by, but its really not the same when it comes to the sound quality, or the way you play. (both of which will affect your writing.)

however, the sonic gap between bass and guitar can be further minimized by using an 8 or 12 string bass. its of course still not at all like playing guitar, but it can fill in a hell of a lot closer than just a bass played high or pitch shifted.

oh and by the way, outside of using samples, synths cant always take the place of bass either. sure, you can fill in with a muddier tone, but they cant emulate a bright round wound bass string all that well.

or if you learn the guitar you learn the bass too, the opposite does not hold true...

learning guitar will only teach you where the notes are on bass...it will not make you a bassist. the groove is different, the mindset is different, the note choice is different, you play within rhythms differently, the playing techniques are different, etc. and by the way...you can play chords on bass too, i do it all the time. it sounds very different than guitar and it teaches you just as much about playing guitar as guitar will teach you about bass. (meaning not enough to turn you into the other player.)

Also, the bass player seldom gets laid.

sad but true. thats what we get for not playing a flashy instrument and often being the quiet types. why the hell did i decide to devote my self to basses and synths! however, to those in the know, bassist's finger techniques can be highly valued. (yet another reason to learn to play without a pick.)

the action is .... well the size of the grand canyon compare to a guitar.

thats only if the bass is setup like shit. a good bass with a good setup, and even a child has the strength to play it. bass does have a longer scale length so the stretch issue is real though. but like anything else, you get used to it if you practice. it also depends on your hand positioning/technique and how large of a stretch your music typically requires.

btw, if you really want an easy bass to play...check out the ashbory bass. its the professional version of playing a rubber band, it sounds huge, and its damn fun. of course since the strings are silicon, its not useful for all that many styles of music...but they are a blast. i used to own one and i will again someday. http://www.largesound.com

Actually, without a decent tuner bass can be a bit hard to tune. Cheap-o tuners don't like low frequencies. When I get to the low B on my bass most cheap tuners don't even register that a note has been played.

true, crappy tuners have a harder time with bass than guitar. tuning to the 12th fret harmonic often does the trick though. but its best to get a good tuner anyway...be it for guitar or bass. once you are trying to record on a track with pitch perfect synths, your poorly tuned, poorly intonated guitar or bass will drive you crazy. its not as easy to get away with suspect tuning when you're not playing in a rock or punk band.

Ok. Let's assume that I would buy a guitar. What about if I wanted to get that very low, full and powerful guitar sound from many of Rob Zombie/Korn/Marilyn Manson/Rammstein songs? Is there some specific guitar type + strings that I should use to achieve that kind of sound or is it all just effecting and doubling?

(just checking out the possibilities here)

for starters...for a big metal kerchunking sound, you'll want humbuckers and something (pedal, pod, amp sim) that does really good high gain distortion. single coil pickups just dont do it all that well. secondly, for a deeper sound, you may want to use a drop tuning. (down to D or B, or use a 7 string guitar.)

Oh! BTW: I know that guitars can sound guite different because of different pickups etc. What about bass'? How different can they sound without any effects etc.?

it depends on the bass. a two pickup bass with a good 3 band eq (espeically with a mid sweep) can give you a hell of a lot of tones. conversely a bass with one pickup and and a single tone knob wont get you much. however, unlike a synth, you dont have to rely solely on the instrument for different tones...you can get different sounds just depending on how you play it, what you play it with, where you pluck the strings, etc.

Are there some bass' which are designed to some specific kind of music or something?

some basses do better in some styles than others. for example, a hollow body hoffner copy (beatle bass) or an ashbory bass may not be the best choices for metal. but generally speaking, its more about the tone you prefer than the style the bass may have been intended for.

and as far as what the "right" tone is...just go the store and try as many as you can. you will find yourself being drawn towards certain sounds more than others. use your ear and it will lead you to the kinds of tones and pickups that are right for you.

and dont listen to what anyone else has to say about what kind of pickups you should choose (p-bass, jazz, musicman, soap bar, etc.) thats their preference in tone, not yours. again, just use your ears and you'll find the right fit for you. everytime i did this with a customer, they never had too hard a hard time choosing. they always found themselves leaning more towards one type of sound than another. (especially in p-bass / jazz bass taste tests.)

also, try different fingerboard woods too if you can. for example, maple sounds very different from rosewood.

Wouldn't a fretless bass be much harder for a beginning player to learn?

Also, it's not a totally exclusive idea. You can always play a guitar with a slide.

yes, fretless is harder to learn. my first bass was a fretless, but it was not nearly as quick to settle in with than a fretted because you're really got to watch your finger placement or else you'll be out of tune.

of course slide guitar is not the same as fretless...different sound, different playing techniques...but you can use a slide on bass too. (check out cds by the late great band, morphine.)

I once had a fretless guitar - just ripped the frets out of an old axe that I didn't use anymore. Sustain was way less than stellar (because it's been an ultra cheap guitar), but the sounds were nice.

i did this once too. the stustain problem isnt just because the guitar was cheep. plain, non-wound, strings get muted very easilly between the flesh of your fingers and the fingerboard. you have to play those strings with your fingernails in order to get them to sing better. i've seen fretless nylon string guitars before but i've never tried one. i suspect they could be pretty cool too.

btw, if you pull the frets from an instrument, you need to fill the spaces. prefferably with wood, but putty if you must. (then sand with a radius block to smooth it all out.) if you dont fill the slots, you wont get clean notes (because there's a hole where the note should have been) and you'll run the risk of encourraging a perminant warp in the neck.

There's a VERY easy way to assess this for yourself: go to a music shop and try the Line6 Variax Bass. Try the different sounds you can choose with the model selector knob.

except that you are limited to what the line 6 dev's though the bass should sound like. for example, i think the variax musicman setting is horrible. it sounds absolutely nothing like my stingray. mabey a really bad stingray with ancient strings, but not a good one.

but what's the thing with the baritone guitar?

baritone's are tuned lower and have a longer scale length compared to a normal guitar. i tune one of my normal electric guitars down to B and i put 13 gague strings on it to keep the tension up. its fun to play guitar with some lower notes. you can get some very cool vibes doing that, both with clean and distorted sounds. (baritones and drop tuned guitars dont sound like a bass, btw.)

by the way, no matter if you decide on guitar or bass, there are a few things you'll want to do when shopping...

1. play a wide variety of instruments, even play stuff thats more expensive than you can afford. this will give you a good idea of what kinds of tones and feels are available and it will help you find out which characteristics appeal most to you.

2. play every note on the fingerboard...yes all of them. and play them at a variety of strengths (light attack, medium, and heavy.) you're looking for an instrument where the notes ring clearly for every note and every string, with as little string buzz as possible and with relatively equal sustain. you dont want to buy a guitar only to find that the 15th fret buzzes like hell and the 7th on the G is a dud...and you didnt notice because you didnt bother to check when you were at the store.

3. make sure any instrument you are interested in buying plays comfortably...even a bass. if you have to strain to fret notes, the action is probably too high. if it buzzes too much, see if the shop's tech can adjust it for you. but if their solution is to raise the action so high that it becomes uncomfortable, dont bother with them. they either dont know how to properly adjust an instrument or they are trying to cover up bad workmanship. and definitely dont let any salesman tell you that all electric basses are supposed to have high action. that is complete bullshit.

a well built, properly setup, guitar can easilly have the action as low as 1/16th of an inch off the 12th fret. a good bass can get nearly as low, though a lot of players prefer 3/32, and its a more common acceptable height adjustment. personally, i prefer 3/32 on the low string strings and lower than that on the highs.

4. tap and wiggle the knobs and switches. they should not pop, crackle or cut out. do the same with the jack..it should not mess up either. if anything does, some electronics repairs should be done. (usually either cleaning or replacement depending on the part and the problem.)

5. play the instrument standing and sitting down. make sure its comfortable for you in both positions. (not too heavy, not falling off your leg, etc.)

6. plug into a tuner and check the intonation. to do so...first tune the open strings so that they are perfectly in tune. next fret the 12th fret, then the 15th, and so on up the neck. what you are looking for is to see if the notes keep their pitch all the way up. if the rise in pitch, then the saddles need to be pulled back to compensate. if the notes drop in pitch, the saddles need to be moved forward towards the nut to shorten the scale length. do this on every string.

if something is out of tune when you do this, the shop needs to adjust the guitar. if they dont know how, go someplace where they do know how to tweak this. if they really do know how, but it just wont play in tune, dont buy that guitar. either the bridge, the neck or the nut has been poorly installed and its messed up the scale length. any half decent guitar, even a cheep one, should be able to play perfectly in tune at least up to the 17th fret.

by the way, its important when you test this that you press the string down lightly and evenly otherwise you may be throwing off your test by pressing down too hard.

7. when buying a used guitar, look at the condition of the frets beneeth the strings. you may see some flat spots, but you dont want any dings, divits, or dents. major wear like that will get in the way of playability, if not right now, then before long...and its an expensive job to fix the problem.

also as a general rule of thumb, here are a few things about string buzzes and neck/fret problems.

- a note is clean on one fret, buzzy on the next one or two, then clean again:
this is typically that you've got a high fret. either it wasnt leveled correctly in the first place or its trying to pop out of the fingerboard. (often because it wasnt bent properly when it was installed.) it can also be because a fret or two is too low, either by having been filed too far down, or its worn down from playing.

- the first fret or two buzz but everything else seems fine:
this is usually a sign that the neck is pulled back too far and the truss rod needs to be backed off.

- the frets from the 11th or 12th fret on up get buzzy:
this is probably whats called a "rising tongue", where the neck is bent causing the string to not get enough clearance over the frets in the entire upper end of the neck. many times this is simply a case where the truss rod is too loose and needs to be pulled back some. in other cases, its because the neck is unfortunately bent and the truss rod cant compensate for it.

- the frets are buzzier on one side of the neck than the other, but the action is pretty much the same for all strings:
this is likely a case of the neck being twisted. theres not much you can do about this.

- the fretted notes are fine, but the open strings buzz:
although this can be a case of the neck being too tight, more likely than not its actually that the nut slots are too low. to fix this, the nut would either have to be patched, or replaced. (and ignoring it wont do you much good because it will only get worse with time.)

so to sum it up...
1. try lots of instruments to see whats actually out there. trust in your ears and hands and they will tell you whats a good fit for you.
2. play every note, check for clarity and tuning.
3. check the electronics by using the controls and wiggling them.
4. dont let anyone tell you that a guitar or bass is supposed to be hard to play, buzzy or out of tune.

its amazing how many good quality inexpensive guitars and basses out there these days. quality in the lower and mid price ranges has drastically improved over the last 10 years. so if you look around, you should be able to find yourself a great playing, great sounding instrument that will make you happy, without having to spend much money.

-ugo

[Sascha Franck]

btw, if you pull the frets from an instrument, you need to fill the spaces. prefferably with wood, but putty if you must. (then sand with a radius block to smooth it all out.) if you dont fill the slots, you wont get clean notes (because there's a hole where the note should have been) and you'll run the risk of encourraging a perminant warp in the neck.

Yeah, of course I filled the slots, sanded the neck and even laquered it.
But really, the guitar allready had close to no sustain with frets... so it really wasn't as great an experience. I once played a professional fretless guitar (in other words: build to be fretless) and it was quite another thing instantly.

Anyways, as for the rest of your post: great and comprehensive advice!

[darcyb62]

Ugo... Great post! Very informative. Your comments on bassist fingering techniques is interesting and very true. My son started on guitar and after 3 years of lessons switched to bass. Took bass lessons for 4 years and has just recently switched back to guitar. It's really quite astounding what the 4 years of bass playing did to his guitar playing. He does things on the guitar, that are simply astounding. A lot of times on the lead he drops the pick and just goes at it with his fingers, the sounds he can get and the speed he can achieve using those fingers is something else.

[Stupid American Pig]

I find that finger picking seems much more natural on guitar for me as well. Picks make me play sloppy..

[Kraku]

Thanks everyone for your comments/ideas/notes (and especially ugo, for your very long and informative post). I'll go to the shop and start testing those instruments thoroughly. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of it.

[Kraku]

Well. Today I visited two music instrument stores here in Helsinki and spend 2 hours in each one testing bass guitars (4 hours total). All in all I think I went through something like 20 different basses and they really do sound different from each other I was quite surpriced how big differences there are between them. So, I tested lots of basses and found two nice basses from the first shop and three from the second shop. When I was leaving the second shop, I had a conversation with the salesman. The conversation drifted to the pickups of the basses I liked the best and it was quite a surprice that all of those had Bartolini pickups! I went back to the first store and asked what pickups those two basses had and they too had Bartolinis in them! I quess I know now what pickups appeal to me the best

When I first went to test those basses, I was prepared to spend something around 500e for the bass. When I tested the more expensive ones, there really was a noticable difference in the sound, so I realized that I'd better atleast double my budget so that I wont be disappointed with my bass after a few years. It's a long time investment, I'd say.

Tomorrow I'll go back to those stores and keep in mind that Bartolini name and test those basses some more. I'll also test different kind of neck materials and try to see if there are any problems with my favourite basses (buzzing, dud notes, etc...).

I'll keep you posted what happens and if I buy a bass (and what bass it might be).

[Stupid American Pig]

yeah I hate my 189 dolalr epi SG Bass, only one neck humbucker, and the sound is alittle muddy for my taste, I may just use it as a test bed to try out new pickups and learn guitar modding.