Art Acoustic or R66 Verb?

[Jeremy_NSL]

i played around with R66 on vocals in one of my mixes for 2 hours and compared it to Ambience Reverb.
And as sad as it sounds: I couldn't hear "a better sound" coming out of R66.
But maybe that's because I'm not "the best mixing engineer", yet...

Maybe I'll get the difference in 1-2 years.

I wouldn't worry about it too much... As much as reading kvr can make you think the Holy Grail of music production is this perfect reverb, in practical terms expensive reverbs aren't going to affect your mixes that much. In fact, your mixes will probably be better if you just dial the reverb down a bit. Listening to songs here in the cafe and elsewhere on the internet, I'd say over-reverbing is one of the top five problems I hear.

And for those times a certain element 'needs' a super-high quality verb, there is always SIR. But for me, Ambience and Classic reverb are good enough for small doses here and there...

[greendoor]

I've owned hardware reverbs since the 1980's, and I only recently converted to plugins about 3 years ago. I thought the plugins in Logic and Cubase were unusable crap (still do), but at the time Silverspike convinced me plugin reverb was the future - it was adequate to allow me to quit hardware reverb. Since then i've acquired dozens of plugin reverbs, and while some have limited use, they generally aren't very good in comparison. SIR, Magnus Ambiance, and lately Glaceverb are notable exceptions. But I was still missing the sound and features of hardware - especially the ability to shape reverb tails in interesting rythmic ways. Thats when ArtsAcoustic appeared and blew me away with it's stunning sound and editability. I haven't tried R66 (why do people use rar and Paypal - hate, hate). But it doesn't seem to have anywhere near the same features and editability, which I guess explains the lower price.

[Cinemascore]

I wouldn't worry about it too much... As much as reading kvr can make you think the Holy Grail of music production is this perfect reverb, in practical terms expensive reverbs aren't going to affect your mixes that much. In fact, your mixes will probably be better if you just dial the reverb down a bit. Listening to songs here in the cafe and elsewhere on the internet, I'd say over-reverbing is one of the top five problems I hear.

And for those times a certain element 'needs' a super-high quality verb, there is always SIR. But for me, Ambience and Classic reverb are good enough for small doses here and there...

I agree with you 100% for music genres that ARE NOT acoustic orchestral music: i.e. - classical, New Age, and ESPECIALLY film score music. That “Holy Grail” reverb (I like you call it that!) is almost as important as the recording quality of the instruments themselves (whether that be real musicians or samples). The reverb then acts as “glue” or “gel” to make the different timbres “stick” together. Without a really fine reverb (or in most cases, many, many reverbs in subtle layers) the entire ensemble falls flat on its face.

Secret here guys – to really get a convincing “Hollywood” sound with samples, you HAVE to use lots of reverbs. And as greendoor is an owner and a fan like me – I chose ArtsAcoustic reverb. I use 15 instances in realtime with my setup – AND IT”S ALLOWED UNDER THE LICENSE! You simply CANNOT do that with PACE or challenge/response unless you really feel like paying for every single instance that you need to use.

[droolmaster0]

Secret here guys – to really get a convincing “Hollywood” sound with samples, you HAVE to use lots of reverbs. And as greendoor is an owner and a fan like me – I chose ArtsAcoustic reverb. I use 15 instances in realtime with my setup – AND IT”S ALLOWED UNDER THE LICENSE! You simply CANNOT do that with PACE or challenge/response unless you really feel like paying for every single instance that you need to use.

Is that true? If I buy the Princeton reverb in the group buy, the PACE protection will limit me to ONE instance?

[mandolarian]

You can't!!!
You're kidding right? 10 tracks of R66 is $1,499.00!!!

[Cinemascore]

Is that true? If I buy the Princeton reverb in the group buy, the PACE protection will limit me to ONE instance?

On only one machine, no. On more than one machine at the same time, yes.

[Cinemascore]

I guess I should clarify: As with most all plug-ins, regardless of copy protection, you can run as many as you can until your CPU runs out of steam. I'm talking with just a simple serial number setup AND a flexible license agreement, such as with AAR, you can spread as many reverbs over as many machines as you wish - no limitation. In fact, being that AAR is cross platform, you can run VST versions both on XP PCs and OSX Macs as well (OSX Mac AU forthcoming, adding to that). I'm not sure if R66 is cross platform, and also what type of CP it uses, flexible or not...

[droolmaster0]

I guess I should clarify: As with most all plug-ins, regardless of copy protection, you can run as many as you can until your CPU runs out of steam. I'm talking with just a simple serial number setup AND a flexible license agreement, such as with AAR, you can spread as many reverbs over as many machines as you wish - no limitation. In fact, being that AAR is cross platform, you can run VST versions both on XP PCs and OSX Macs as well (OSX Mac AU forthcoming, adding to that). I'm not sure if R66 is cross platform, and also what type of CP it uses, flexible or not...

good. that's what I had thought, but I just wanted to make sure.

[Jeremy_NSL]

I agree with you 100% for music genres that ARE NOT acoustic orchestral music: i.e. - classical, New Age, and ESPECIALLY film score music. That “Holy Grail” reverb (I like you call it that!) is almost as important as the recording quality of the instruments themselves (whether that be real musicians or samples). The reverb then acts as “glue” or “gel” to make the different timbres “stick” together. Without a really fine reverb (or in most cases, many, many reverbs in subtle layers) the entire ensemble falls flat on its face.

Secret here guys – to really get a convincing “Hollywood” sound with samples, you HAVE to use lots of reverbs. And as greendoor is an owner and a fan like me – I chose ArtsAcoustic reverb. I use 15 instances in realtime with my setup – AND IT”S ALLOWED UNDER THE LICENSE! You simply CANNOT do that with PACE or challenge/response unless you really feel like paying for every single instance that you need to use.

Hey Cinemascore. I agree that for orchestral stuff reverb is more important - except if the samples have seperate ambience mic tracks like some do nowadays. For this, SIR should be perfect though, shouldn't it? You can get some pretty killer concert hall, cathedral impulses.

I don't understand why you need 15 different verbs for an orchestral tune though. How will all those different verbs 'gel' and how will it sound like a realistic space? IMO one single concert hall verb, and careful use of verb send amounts (to place instruments in 3d, farther or closer to the listener) is the key for realistic orchestra.

[OMU]

The man has 15 computers...
So he has to use them

[Cinemascore]

Hey Cinemascore. I agree that for orchestral stuff reverb is more important - except if the samples have seperate ambience mic tracks like some do nowadays. For this, SIR should be perfect though, shouldn't it? You can get some pretty killer concert hall, cathedral impulses.

I don't understand why you need 15 different verbs for an orchestral tune though. How will all those different verbs 'gel' and how will it sound like a realistic space? IMO one single concert hall verb, and careful use of verb send amounts (to place instruments in 3d, farther or closer to the listener) is the key for realistic orchestra.

Let me explain a little further into how and why I’m using them in this way and hopefully it will shed some light on it for you.

I’m using EWQLSO (Gold) across 5 computers, and a sixth computer runs selected VSL samples (from the full first edition set). Yes, Gold has built-in REAL ambience (which is great because it’s “Hollywood” sounding right out of the box). I’m using 3 instances of AAR per orchestral section (basically per computer) because I’m MIDI composing and audio tracking in 5.1 surround sound all in realtime (tell you why below): one instance for “front”, one for “mid” and one for “surround” or back of hall. The Gold (and VSL) samples are just stereo, so branching them out in this way really opens them up and further disguises them as not being "real". I use the reverbs in this way in a VERY sparingly way and I also utilize 5.1 panning as well to accommodate the proper proximity cues of what a real orchestra would be "mic'ed" like.

To answer your question about the “gel” – if only one (set of) reverb(s) is used to bring everything together, the different sections of the orchestra would “clash” sonically and form a kind of a “soup”. Why? If you use the same exact reverb setup say on the flute player as you would the french horn section – you get this effect instantly. Different sections (and sometimes even different instruments within a section) require vastly different flavors and setups of reverb. This would be analogous to recording the entire orchestra on a soundstage with just a single pair of microphones. What I am doing is twofold: I’m simulating the multiple reverb passes that Hollywood does at the final mix and second, I’m simulating a 5.1 mix at the same time – in realtime (no audio printing so it’s all “malleable”).

The “gel” seems, at least in my experience, to be as good as the type and quality of the reverbs that are being used to form it. I’ve had a horrible time trying to get multiple convolution reverbs to fit together into one nice sounding composite - even with the same impulse. I’m not sure why that is, but believe me, I’ve spent lots and lots of wasted time trying to get it to work right(I am a former Altiverb owner). AAR is algorithmic, and doesn’t seem to have these problems. The different parts of the orchestra have to fit perfectly together to form a convincing composite in the end.

In my particular case, the film’s directors that I am working for want a “Media Ventures” type sound – big, full, with a lot of focused low end. The film requires this type of sound due to its story and the way it was shot. I have to deliver that – both the sound and to also work at a break neck pace. My realtime process was essential because it has advantages of being fast, flexible and fluid (“FFF”!) -- providing that one has the computer horsepower to do it. I couldn’t (and wouldn’t have got the job to) be scoring this film without working this way.

Hope that makes a little more sense to you now.

[multree]

I use 15 instances in realtime with my setup – AND IT”S ALLOWED UNDER THE LICENSE! You simply CANNOT do that with PACE or challenge/response unless you really feel like paying for every single instance that you need to use.

wow you seem to have some knowledge here

this is bullshit

you can use as many instances as your CPU allows you

[multree]

I guess I should clarify: As with most all plug-ins, regardless of copy protection, you can run as many as you can until your CPU runs out of steam. I'm talking with just a simple serial number setup AND a flexible license agreement, such as with AAR, you can spread as many reverbs over as many machines as you wish - no limitation. In fact, being that AAR is cross platform, you can run VST versions both on XP PCs and OSX Macs as well (OSX Mac AU forthcoming, adding to that). I'm not sure if R66 is cross platform, and also what type of CP it uses, flexible or not...

Okay just read this....

well yeah some companies allow plugs to be installed on different machines..... but some don't even with serial

[jplanet]

Cinemascore - Your explanation makes a lot of sense. And your work sounds fascinating as well!!

[Cinemascore]

Okay just read this....

well yeah some companies allow plugs to be installed on different machines..... but some don't even with serial

You're right. But the guys at Arts Acoustic allow for mutilple use.

No bullshit!