How do YOU feel about your music being pirated?

[Benedict]

Oh indeed

I was for so long put off music on the internet (and indeed almost all new music) because it seemed that it was/is content poor. Poor quality will never make long term success. The reason ppl still love ABBA or the Eagles after so much time is because it is so good and says something to the listener.

There is a mass of dross on the net that is "cut & paste" "me too" in nature which is sad. I long for those days when (particularly electronic) music was hard to make because any recording was hard work and so almost always worth listening to and content was king.

There are two types of composers out there now; the professionals and the dabblers (both in attitude) and unfortunately the dabblers often dominate. And they hate the pros because they remind them that they are dabblers and taking up resources from the pros. Both compete on the same playing field now so it's confusing to all. Imagine having a soccer team that consisted of Maradonna, Beckham, Bill, Fred, John, Bert, Harry and all the other blokes from the pub. Everyone would be unhappy.

[BONES]

Now, remember, I'm a guy who was a working professional musician for 25 years. A.F. of M. local 149, just like big city musicians. You could spend an entire career as a jobber, and actually live respectably and never once set foot in a recording studio, much less sell product under your own name.

But now you're redundant? Suck it up!

If you wanted even a remote chance of a contract, you spent a lot of money on gear, a lot of time rehearsing, and played a lot of live gigs. You *had* to build an enormous fanbase to even get looked at by an A&R guy

Interesting. I've never had the slightest interest in getting looked at by an A&R guy. I've always paid for my own studio time and production. Over the years I'm sure I've spent more than $50,000 on it. I doubt I've recouped more than 10% of that. Who cares, I got vinyl, tape and shiny stuff - all beautifully packaged with liner notes and everything.

and because there was no internet, you built the fanbase in person, by hand. Ya did whatever you had to...it was a blast.

Wow!

Remember...this was just to try and get a recording contract: all you *really* had at this point was a live show.

All I ever *really* wanted.

When I see the current crop of laptop producers tossing out "It's not worth being a musician if people are pirating my recordings" attitude, I laugh myself incontinent.

Not just the slightest bit arrogant maybe? Or jealous? Being a song-writer and producer is a very different thing to being some loser session muso.

meaning, there will be no such thing as a complete, 100% "information revolution". thats just an impossible thing.

That's actually a really good point. Last weekend I was discussing "the paperless office" with a friend of mine who is a public [civil] servant. It was promised 10 or 15 years ago but the amount of paper floating around offices has barely diminished since that time.

the only real argument against copyright is "i dont want to lose control about what enters and leaves my computer". to use some peoples own words, get real, you already lost. joe average today has next to NO control over what his computer does. that battle has been lost long ago. now deal with it.

Actually, I have 100% control of what goes into and comes out of my computer. Everybody does. P2P requires consent.

imagine that you could download whatever song in great quality, whereever you are, directly to your library, for just a couple of cents (and i dont mean 99 cents).

Wouldn't interest me in the slightest. Its reducing art to a commodity, like prints on toilet paper.

I still think equating P2P with the identikit music that dominates the market and the so-called dip in record company profit margins is bogus.

I think you're probably right but what the hell does that have to do with any of us? We're not signed to majors, we're struggling to get things out [if we even bother at all]. We're the guys who are suffering as big record companies use it as an excuse to be even greedier and take way fewer risks by doing whatever they can to shore up their position and lifestyle. At the same time it affects us directly, even if it only costs a few sales, because a few sales is a significant percentage of our overall sales and until our labels recoup, we're unlikely to get the nod for our next album.

[dystonia_ek]

Morality is what people turn to when they no longer have a leg to stand on

And here was me thinking that morality was the foundation upon which civilization was built. Seems however, that it is really just a fear of being caught and punished.

Civilisation, whether consciously or unconsciously, was built on control and domination - morality is an efficient means of limiting the actions of individuals for the purpose of solidifying and strengthening the collective, nothing more. What 'moral' people think privately is rarely what they say openly. This is frequently due to fear of punishment, I would imagine.

[dystonia_ek]

The reason ppl still love ABBA or the Eagles after so much time is because it is so good and says something to the listener.

[BONES]

What 'moral' people think privately is rarely what they say openly.

I think you have us confused with politicians. I have to say that it is my personal moral values that guide my actions, not any fear of punishment or being caught. I drive as fast as I like because road rules are definitely about subjugating the individual, not about safety. I see speeding tickets as speeding taxes and I'm happy to pay them on the rare occassions that I get caught. OTOH, I have no warez or illegal files on my computer for the simple reason that it is immoral, certainly not because of a fear of getting caught. Same with those pirated DVD's from China, I went into a store in Beijing with a colleague and he bought over 100 DVD's [mostly for less than $2 each] and I only bought two, neither of which was available for Region 4. One has since become available and I have bought a legitimate copy. I have other acquaintances who download DivX movies all the time and offer to burn me copies but I would never so much as watch one because it is condoning theft.
A little self-control goes a long way, it should be what separates us from the poor folk.

[Amberience]

So let me get this straight.. you consider mp3's to be useless, and yet, you're willing to give away mp3's like Candy?

Huh? Haven't I just spent considerable effort saying that I am completely unwilling to give full mp3's away? Just to explain, the reason is that I value our work a little more highly than that. i.e. The end dosn't justify the means.

Funny. They're are some demo mp3's on your website.

[Amberience]

But now you're redundant? Suck it up!

Vinyl and CD's will be redundant sometime in the future, if not already, I mean, the antithesis of redundant is a state where something is needed. Vinyl is certainly not needed anymore than a CD is these days.

You can listen to it all in the realm of computers.

[BONES]

The mp3's on our site are just snippets, a verse and chorus, not whole songs. Your last post assumes that the only thing a CD has is music. My contention is that it is a full package and infinitely more desirable than anything I can listen to in the realm of computers. In my experience people who buy singles and/or make "best of" tapes/discs are people with a very shallow appreciation of music. I never listen to singles or compilations and I never skip tracks on an album because a good album should be much more than a bunch of songs.

[dystonia_ek]

What 'moral' people think privately is rarely what they say openly.

I think you have us confused with politicians. I have to say that it is my personal moral values that guide my actions, not any fear of punishment or being caught. I drive as fast as I like because road rules are definitely about subjugating the individual, not about safety. I see speeding tickets as speeding taxes and I'm happy to pay them on the rare occassions that I get caught. OTOH, I have no warez or illegal files on my computer for the simple reason that it is immoral, certainly not because of a fear of getting caught. Same with those pirated DVD's from China, I went into a store in Beijing with a colleague and he bought over 100 DVD's [mostly for less than $2 each] and I only bought two, neither of which was available for Region 4. One has since become available and I have bought a legitimate copy. I have other acquaintances who download DivX movies all the time and offer to burn me copies but I would never so much as watch one because it is condoning theft.
A little self-control goes a long way, it should be what separates us from the poor folk.

Although we may have different points of view on many issues, I'm totally in agreement with you on the main point - honesty is the issue. I don't do anything, or refrain from doing anything, out of fear of punishment either - if anything, acting according to the dictates of one's nature (provided you have some real notion of what that nature is) tends to eliminate conflict, not cultivate it. Having a consistent value system, and living by it, is one of the things that does separate different sorts of people. I also believe that those value systems should have some rational basis - too many people are ready to swallow preconceived codes of behaviour without examining their foundations. Most of our existing moral, legal, and social frameworks have their origins in religion, for example, and none of these should ever be regarded as absolute. Most such systems ignore or suppress many fundamental facts of our nature. 'Belief' generally equates to 'stop asking questions', and if it has been the source of many impressive cultural achievements, it has also been an endless source of strife, violence and oppression - the worst of which frequently takes place in the minds of individuals, many of whom are all too ready to pull the wool over their own eyes.
Nonetheless, the more we have these exchanges the more you have my respect for taking the high road as you see it - for my part I try to do the same. And I mean that sincerely.

To address your DVD story: I work for one of the largest independent producers and distributors of films in North America, and the financial impact of piracy in the last three consecutive years on us has been pretty much exactly zero. We have been taking precautions with screening copies (in which the visual is deliberately greyscaled and marred with irritating text) and masters - as a result the bootleg copies are rarely of equal interest to the official release.

[BONES]

I think the impact here in Australia is much greater as our nearest neighbour, and most popular overseas holiday destination, is not a signatory to the international copyright treaty. Mind you, I think the whole region thing probably costs the distributors too - there are plenty of Region 1 DVD's I'd buy if I could play 'em. I would also think that downloading is a bigger problem as I know several people who do it constantly and rarely go to the cinema.

[TVD]

you want the truth...the truth is simple, but take notes anyhow...

see it's very easy to say that illegal downloads (which I dont do anyhow) are hurting music sales But percentage wise it might be a little higher then in the day of lps and cassettes. But that's not where a lot of today's artists make their money, many are making it in endorsements. So technically you're not killing the "pop-stars". But it's an easy sell, "look downloads are killing us, 10 billion songs were dowloaded last year, think of the revenue lost?" Easy argument to sell and believe...but it's another smoke and mirror show.

Now add in the fact that the record industry NEEDS artists to surive, and furthermore they NEED artists to NEED them. But that's not the case, vinyl pressing use to cost a fortune, studio time was just as bad...how much does it cost us to burn a cd now? You had to be chosen to be heard, you had to be chosen to distribute your music, the recording industry had a monopoly and held all the cards.

But that's not the case anymore is it? We can write, produce and release our own music now. We buy our DAW's, we dont need studio time, thanks to VST's session musicians are less needed and now the record companies have a problem.

But it's not the one they are talking about, illegal "downloading is hurting our business" gets the sympathy "we demand control" would not...

it's that simple. The record companies want to use the downloading issue to backdoor in their stranglehold again. In order to survive the record companies NEED to exploit musicians (it's been the way for years), however they dont have the power they did before....so yeah their record sales are down because they have less records to sell....there are a lot more independant labels now then twenty years ago...too me independant suggest not a part of the RIAA...

However by pirating people are helping to build the (albeit false) numbers and set the spin futher in motion...

Thanks for the essay Hink!

And to sum it all up (IMHO of course): F*** the RIAA!

[TVD]

Hi,

there's much fuzz going on at KvR about cracked software and how unethical it is to use it.

What about pirated music?

I have encountered some of my tracks for illegal download on the net, and I have mixed feelings about it.

On one hand, those illegal tracks from me that have been recorded from vinyl have poor quality. Furthermore I think that the target buyers for vinyl are DJs, and they can't substitute the real thing with mp3 (unless they use final scratch ), so I have no problem with that. Actually I think spreading those tracks could maybe help reach new people.

On the other hand, I also found illegal tracks that originate from CD compilations that licensed tracks from my vinyl releases, and these exhibit good quality as they are directly ripped from CD. Also the target audience in this case is not DJs, but "normal" consumers, and it bothers me that they can just get it for free.

I am making very little money with music, and I don't think this would change even if illegal mp3s were no longer available all of a sudden. Nevertheless I think it's unethical.

How do you feel about YOUR music being pirated?

As long as I receive all of my royality checks as a songwriter/composer & producer, I could care less about my music being pirated or bootlegged!!!

[derek]

one funny thing in these discussions btw is that everyone tends to take britney spears & co as example, instead of some "middle class" musician workers. cause, you know, those are the majority, just like in any business.

imagine the fate of hundreds or thousands of workers in the car industry would be judged based on the live of the CEO of general motors. that would be totally silly, right?

keep that in mind next time when you come up with one of the "pop stars make their money with their pepsi deal anyway"-type arguments. what the big popstars do is irrelevant. theyll always do fine, that much is sure. but as hard is it is for some to understand, that is NOT the typical representation of a professional musician, it is the exception. the fact that you *know the name* alone is enough to make someone an exception, usually.

[pannewb]

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How about putting a demo mp3 of your song on the major p2ps first before publishing it elsewhere with a calm voice on the end telling people to go to bla bla to order a copy of the song? If people do seem to want to pay rather than pirate, (the medium success of iTunes, Rhaphsody...) then you could kind of stunt the sharing of your song?

Bones is on to something with the demos.

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[Hink]

The mp3's on our site are just snippets, a verse and chorus, not whole songs. Your last post assumes that the only thing a CD has is music. My contention is that it is a full package and infinitely more desirable than anything I can listen to in the realm of computers. In my experience people who buy singles and/or make "best of" tapes/discs are people with a very shallow appreciation of music. I never listen to singles or compilations and I never skip tracks on an album because a good album should be much more than a bunch of songs.

BONES I have agreed with most everything you say...until I came to "a shallow appreciation for music" I think that was kind of blanketed don't yah think? I pretty much stick with MSN for downloading music, and I will say I don't think anyone would say I have a shallow appreciation for music.

FWIW I never liked the idea of downloading until I learned it wasn't mp3. I have made some compilation albums, and there is nothing shallow about it. See 99% of the stuff I download is "nostalgia", songs from my past that I miss hearing. Now I have downloaded about 30 or so songs and 1 album. However in order to get those same songs I probably would have to get 20 albums at least...for one or two songs?

I can see the argument being made that "you might find something you like" and that is valid. However I have like 500 Cd's now and I'm getting older, sorry but if I listen to everything I would miss out on listening to songs I like...that's not shallow, it's taste and logic.