pdc again, just to know..

[moonlite]

wtf .. don't you understand, if we need to use a plug with delay in one track, it would be very simple to just put some negative delay on that track. that would help SOOOOOOOOO much

if you can make a plug that will do that, please do it right away! all exters will get you if you don't ;) ..

but seriously. pdc isn't coming in the near future, and in the meantime, if this negative delay thingie is possible to do in less than a day, i think it should be done. don't you all??

c'mon, even freeze won't work properly without it ....

i want pdc too, but i don't think jörgen is even planning on implementing it yet..

[moonlite]

anyway, this would be a step towards proper pdc. i don't think that implementing this would take time away from implementing pdc ... so i don't see how this could hurt? we would just get relief to a serious problem a LOT earlier!

[peter_r80]

the negative delay is a great idea. Thats my first choice if Jorgen is gonna do anything.

BUT if thats too difficult to implement:

what about delay groups for tracks - or the ability to change the track delay on a selection of tracks (midi and audio) to a certain value or by adding or taking a certain value.

what I mean is - 5 tracks, Track 1 with SIR on it. Select tracks 2,3,4 and 5, type in the sample offset value and it is applied to ALL selected tracks. Later you add say a PSP plug with 1000 sample delay to Track 2. Now you select tracks 1,3,4 and 5 and type say +1000 - this adds 1000 sample delay to the selected tracks - on top of any existing sample delay. Similairly if you remove the PSP plug you can then highlight tracks and type -1000. I hope im explaining this ok. Maybe its too complicated anyway. Id definitely prefer a negative delay. Even if it means you have to leave the first 4 bars blank or something.

Peter

[Jeremy_NSL]

Negative delay? By this you mean a control on a single track, to delay all other tracks by a set value? Yeah that could be useful I guess. But its such a small step away from ext just detecting each tracks latency, and doing pdc without any user input.

I'd be happy for now with just simple track pdc in the sequencer. sends pdc and the complex modular stuff can wait.

[aldi]

a negative delay slider IS an manual PDC and nearly all problems a programmer could have with pdc will uccure for this also, so i don't think it's a one day challange but jorgen have said, he will implement these sliders first and then go to full pdc later.

[knoob]

once again....negative delay ??? I don't think that's possible. Delay is delay, negative delay isn't delay

I almost sure the only way to compensate the delay introduced by a plug-in is delaying EVERY OTHER tracks by the same amount of time. Not antecepating the problematic plug-in like you're sugesting.

edit: forget it, i should read all the posts .... your on the right track

[moonlite]

Negative delay? By this you mean a control on a single track, to delay all other tracks by a set value? Yeah that could be useful I guess. But its such a small step away from ext just detecting each tracks latency, and doing pdc without any user input.

I'd be happy for now with just simple track pdc in the sequencer. sends pdc and the complex modular stuff can wait.

well i think here's where you are wrong .. speculation has been, that pdc will be too much work rigth now, but we need /something/ so the negative delay will be the next best thing. ... and jörgen has promised already to implement that, so ...

and as you said, it's a step towards real pdc so how can this not be a good idea?

and as i said, i don't think this takes much time away from implementing a real pdc in the future.

what i mean by that is that most of the work that jörgen puts in this track delay knob should be done anyway when he's implementing pdc.

if i could choose, i'd have both. and i'd take first the one that's ready sooner.

i mean, c'mon, we could be waiting months, or even YEARS for pdc, but this thingie he could be doing already to the next version.

so .. .. give some support to this good thing now and stop complaining about real pdc as i've personally complained .. almost a year now without getting any response .. ;)

[moonlite]

you know .. ANYTHING to keep us from having to adjust 10:s of delay plugins every time you introduce a new plugin with delay ..

[moonlite]

and knoob, as i see it, it would just give the midi data to the plugin chain a little bit earlier .. you know? =)

[Jeremy_NSL]

yes, but how do you give the plugin midi earlier if the midi starts on bar 1? Ok, so you could a blank bar at the beginning. But what if you start playback in the middle of the track? The only way the mix will be syncronized is if you delay all the other tracks so the track with latency will catch up.

What you propose would be doable if you leave a blank bar at the beginning, and only start playback at the very start of the track. Otherwise, I don't see how its possible.

[aldi]

@moonlite seems like you don't understand. i would like to see pdc or a slider with negative delay also as soon as possible (it's a showstopper for using ext only in studio) but implementing these slider is the same as implementing pdc with nearly all that's got to do with it (except pdc for aux-sends) so it's not a one day job or much easier to implement than full pdc. but i'm sure it will be in near future cause jorgen does ALL soo fast:)

[moonlite]

floyd, i don't want to speculate exactly how it should be implemented on the techical side, because i don't see myself as competent enough to do that, so i wont ;) .. but pdc seems to be working in pretty many hosts, and that's how i myself see it. ... but my point was only that the negatively delayed plug chain will get the midi data earlier than the rest.

and of course earlier than the display .. and .. earlier than just about anything so that the timing will work in freeze etc ..

i don't even WANT to go speculating on /exactly/ how it should be done. i myself don't see any point in me doing it.

aldi, ok .. could be you're rignt, could be you're wrong. i don't know exactly, because i don't know that much about coding. i've based my oppinion by reading other peoples - who at least /seemed/ tehey know what they're talking about - speculation.

but i don't know. hope you're right .. but still the negative/positive track delay slider would be cool. even if we /had/ pdc already.

... and /if/ we'd have that faster than pdc, i'd take it.

i've been waiting for pdc for over half a year know. .. and posted like 5 fr's .. and actively tried to keep alive threads that were even talking about pdc =)

and jörgen has said nothing.

then i got the idea of a negative track delay slider from logic, and jörgen said yes.

so /that/ is the reason we should support this idea. _and_ the thing that i ment when i said that "don't you understand".

but either way, let's hope we get one or both ASAP, and let's hope one or both will be easy for jörgen to implement.

that's all i hope.

[zieQ]

Before i ear another supposition whether pdc will be easy to implement or not, i can explain a little bit how it works.

First, negative delay, i.e. playing a track before ever knowing that play button was clicked is impossible, you should know, it's not magic . The *only* way to do is to delay all other tracks by a adequate amount of time.

Basically, pdc works the following way:
* For each possible audio path that ouputs from eXT (audio, midi+vstis, including sends, inserts, connections on the main window)
* Calculate the total delay of the route by summing the latency of every plugin on that route
* Then take the maximum delay
* And delay playback of every route by (max_delay - route_delay)

Problems:
* Imagine an audio part going into two different effects : one with low latency and one with high latency. The *single* audio part should be played back at *two* distinct moments to synchronize the two routes.
* Depending on how Jorgen has implemented eXT, it could be difficult to :
- enumerate all routes
- find all the vst on that route
- delay the playback according to the previous problem (i.e. many playbacks of the same part)

The delay slider per track is *NOT* the solution as it won't work for send effects or multiple connections out of the sequencer ! That could only be a warkaround for insert effects

[moonlite]

Before i ear another supposition whether pdc will be easy to implement or not, i can explain a little bit how it works.

First, negative delay, i.e. playing a track before ever knowing that play button was clicked is impossible, you should know, it's not magic ;). The *only* way to do is to delay all other tracks by a adequate amount of time.

well of course i ment in relation to the other plugs .. but it's not ONLY the other plugs that would be delayed. it should also delay the display, the timing, and everything else. so of course i ment negative delay compared to everything else in the software, and NOT /absolute/, IRL negative delay.

c'mon!

Basically, pdc works the following way:
* For each possible audio path that ouputs from eXT (audio, midi+vstis, including sends, inserts, connections on the main window)
* Calculate the total delay of the route by summing the latency of every plugin on that route
* Then take the maximum delay
* And delay playback of every route by (max_delay - route_delay)

Problems:
* Imagine an audio part going into two different effects : one with low latency and one with high latency. The *single* audio part should be played back at *two* distinct moments to synchronize the two routes.
* Depending on how Jorgen has implemented eXT, it could be difficult to :
- enumerate all routes
- find all the vst on that route
- delay the playback according to the previous problem (i.e. many playbacks of the same part)

The delay slider per track is *NOT* the solution as it won't work for send effects or multiple connections out of the sequencer ! That could only be a warkaround for insert effects :wink:

yes well that's all I would need. i couldn't even imagine how big of a chore it would be to implement pdc to the modular part of ext.

all I, and aiui most of us needs, is just an easy way to compensate the delay of insert fx in the sequencer. simple as that.

as i have explained many times before, even in this particular thread:

" you know .. ANYTHING to keep us from having to adjust 10:s of delay plugins every time you introduce a new plugin with delay .. "

of course i could have pointed out that i was only talking about simple insert effects, but i assumed everybody realized this already ...

imho it would be a waste of time to implement pdc to the modular part.

[moonlite]

just to make sure, i'll say it once again:

## at least /i/ am suggesting only the compensation of simple insert fx ##

=)

manual or automatic. whichever comes first. and eventually i'd like to see both. to easily fine-tune the timing between all your drums and the bass, for example.