Guitarists - technical help needed (tuning on bridge)

[Paulie Phonick]

I'm having a bit of a problem with tuning my guitar on the bridge. For each of the strings, the bridge allows for adjusting the distance the string and the fretboard as well as the length of the string (which is quite common, I think).

I've set the distances for each of the strings to as little as possible without having them ring on higher frets (I like having them low). Then I tried to adjust the lengths of strings to get the same tone on the 12th fret as the half string length harmonic tone.

Now the problem is that for some strings (namely low E and A), I've not been able to set it correctly as I've run out of the adjustment range - I should make the string even longer as the fret tone is still higher than the harmonic tone by some 10 cents, but there is no way to do it.

Is there anything I can do about it (preferably without changing strings) or is the guitar just crap? (which is quite likely as it's just a cheap telecaster clone )

[Soniccat]

Setting the intonation on a guitar can be easy especially if the quality of the bridge is good and the scale length is done correctly in the first place. Many cheap guitars have this problem and can be very frustrating to correct. My recomendation would be to take it to a qualified tech and see what they might recomend, replacing the bridge with a good quality one may be all that is necessary. Sometimes an adjustment to the bridge location would be needed but that is a bigger job and may cost more money than it is worth. If you don't have a tech nearby that could do the job, there are books that explain the procedure for doing this correctly. I have built several guitars and just through trial and error managed to get it set right and they just need tweaking occasionaly. There may be some other factors that limit your guitar from playing the way that you want it to and I always recomend to guitarists to learn as much about their instruments as they can to keep them performing comfortably.

That said there are many guitarists who can make any guitar they pick up really sing so once you get good enough a less than perfect guitar can still be a joy to play.

Hope this helps

[Cordelia]

Good advice, Soniccat. Paulie, you may not want to change strings, but I've had sets that just don't intone properly (generally lights or extra lights). Also, the fix may be as simple as a truss rod adjustment. A bowed neck can produce the problem you describe. A neck set at the wrong angle will also cause intonation problems. If the neck is true and your strings are relatively new and decent quality, but the problem persists, a bridge replacement or most likely, a bridge relocation would be the solution.

[Sascha Franck]

As has been said: This is a very common problem with some cheap guitars. It actually makes me wonder - because those cheap guitars are more or less computer-crafted and there shouldn't be such essential mistakes.

Anyways, something that hasn't been mentioned yet: Especially on the low E and A strings you could also run into a phenomen called "stratitis" (because most often it's happening on strats).
This is happening with low string action and rather "high" pickups. Single coils have a pretty strong magnetic field and they are often responsible for detunings on positions higher than, say, 8-10.
To see whether this is the problem, you can just lower the pickup for a test.
In case it's getting better, you may either leave the pickup down there or try with a thicker set of strings (if you still want light high strings, go for a "light top, heavy bottom" set). Thicker bottom strings might also be a solution for general intonation problems, regardless of whether there's "stratitis" happening.

If nothing helps, I'd have a look whether it actually harms reallife performance.
Just think about how often you'll play chords in that fretboard range - I'd say rarely. And single notes usually are sort of compensated by finger vibrato anyways.
If the intonation problem was happening on the top strings, it'd be much more critical.
I managed to live with similar problems on my old Ibanez Roadstar for at least 2-3 years, before I finally exchanged the bridge (and 2 weeks after that it got stolen... *sigh*).

But as said, first thing I'd check is pickup heighth.

[P.T.]

I don't think you are supposed to use the harmonic for setting intonation.

Fret it at the 12th fret and get it to sound the same as the open string. Use a tuner.

[Sascha Franck]

12th fret harmonics are perfect. They're not "blurried" by "perfect vs. tempered" pitch (such as thirds).
But of course using a tuner is allways a good idea for such things.

[Steve Parker]

i had the same problem on a les paul copy - luckily i worked at a place where we had some good guitar tech's. they diagnosed the problem as incorrect scale length and actually moved the neck approx 6mm, which isn't something i would have attempted myself..

so - take it to someone who knows what they're doing if you really can't live with it.

Cheers

Steve

[Paulie Phonick]

Thanks for all the suggestions! I was afraid that this problem would require some guitar surgery - in fact my first reaction was: why the hell isn't the bridge mounted a centimeter further?! But, as Steve pointed, it could also be incorrect scale length. I'll have to investigate it further to see how the detune behaves on frets.

I'll also look for symptoms of "stratitis" though, perhaps the strings really are too thin (they are thin actually, though I don't know their exact width - they came with the guitar) for being as low as I've put them (thanks Sascha!).

Fortunately it's not that much of a problem (for now). As I mentioned it's around 10+ cents which isn't really hearable during normal playing and will not hurt much while practicing. I was just trying to make the guitar tune "perfectly" for the comfort of it

Of course, if the problem gets worse in time, I'll have to contact a guitar surgeon. Or get a (more) decent guitar - whichever turns out to cost less

And yes, I am using a tuner for this (I wouldn't be able to diagnose it with cent accuracy without it ) - the AP Tuner in fact - a very handy little program.

[Sascha Franck]

You could also use K-Tuner (sorry, no link handy) which is running as a DX plugin, so it can be used straight in your host.

[sangha]

As has been said: This is a very common problem with some cheap guitars. It actually makes me wonder - because those cheap guitars are more or less computer-crafted and there shouldn't be such essential mistakes.

I think the problem arises when those pieces are assembled.

[garret]

I strongly suggest taking the guitar to an experienced tech for a setup. I messed around with my own guitars for years, never very happy with the results... when I finally gave up and took it in, I was amazed at the difference. There's a real art to balancing the truss rod, intonation, string weight, pickup heights...

And it's generally scary cheap... it's been a little while and my memory is bad, but I think the last setup I got was around $25. So don't mess around, get a pro to do the job.

That said, how do you find a pro? That's tricky... best bet is to ask local musicans or studio people to recommend someone... many shops have "in store" service where they claim to do basic setup work, but in my experience you're unlikely to get a good setup that way. You want the specialist luthier guy, often who works out of his house, who picks up guitars from the shops every few days... not the high school sales clerk who knows little more than you do.

[Hink]

12th fret harmonics are perfect. They're not "blurried" by "perfect vs. tempered" pitch (such as thirds).
But of course using a tuner is allways a good idea for such things.

absolutely.......fret the 12th and then pop the harmonic...adjust it until they are both in tune (working retail selling guitars I've done hundreds). Unless you're messing with a rose it should take about the same amount of time as it does to tune...btw the 12 fret harmonic/fretting the 12th fret is the method taught at Fender's service training..

The Whisper

[AndrewSimon]

After you check the 12th fret on the hi E string also check the 5th and 17th (A and hi A on the E string)
If your E's are OK but the A's are bad it's probably incorrect scale length.

[Max el Belga]

Use the vst C-tuner ! The best free one. Very accurate. Never instrument tunig was that easy. 38 years of guitar customizing and building guarantee it. Cheers... .. .

[Hink]

I strongly suggest taking the guitar to an experienced tech for a setup. I messed around with my own guitars for years, never very happy with the results... when I finally gave up and took it in, I was amazed at the difference. There's a real art to balancing the truss rod, intonation, string weight, pickup heights...

And it's generally scary cheap... it's been a little while and my memory is bad, but I think the last setup I got was around $25. So don't mess around, get a pro to do the job.

That said, how do you find a pro? That's tricky... best bet is to ask local musicans or studio people to recommend someone... many shops have "in store" service where they claim to do basic setup work, but in my experience you're unlikely to get a good setup that way. You want the specialist luthier guy, often who works out of his house, who picks up guitars from the shops every few days... not the high school sales clerk who knows little more than you do.

I disagree...it's like changing a tire, if you drive you should know how to change a tire...if you play guitar and you can't set it up proper, you still have some serious basics to learn. The intonation will need to be adjusted from time to time, especially if you change gauge, a tech isn't you, he'll set the guitar up for him and hope you like it. Changing strings, tuning, setting intonation, adjusting string heights are all part of playing...

All too often we want to skip the basics and move on to have fun...not learning it now will just come back to bite you in the ass later. Learn it now, there are many books available. Furthermore if you play electric guitar you should know how to use a soldering iron, replace jacks, plugs on cables, pots and pick-ups (all stuff that is very easy to do..again there are many books).



New song, The Whisper