What to get now? Loops or Brit Horns?

[telebunke]

I would say Groove Capsule or Eclectic Drums will fit the bill for you then.

FX-processed drum kits, that's what Electric Drums is? If I got it right there's no loops.
Even though I'm sure they're gonna be cool - SS2 + ST2 got enough kits for me. At least for now.

tele

[Mr. Tunes]

FX-processed drum kits, that's what Electric Drums is? If I got it right there's no loops.
Even though I'm sure they're gonna be cool - SS2 + ST2 got enough kits for me. At least for now.

tele

yep you got it- no loops in eclectic drums.
good luck on your decisions, may the force be with you!

[telebunke]

good luck on your decisions, may the force be with you!

LOL

[telebunke]

Hey guys. I just got back from a REALLY long production meeting so I'm dead tired... but I'll get back tomorrow with some details about the grooves and Brit Horns.

-Kim.

Sure, I'd love to hear some more about the grooves capsule.
Especially converning
a) Styles of muscic that you could see produced, just name some famous artists (international) - that'll do the trick for me.
b) Workflow, steps you gotta do to get it right in a full song's context

That would be great
tele

[Kim Lajoie]

Ok, sorry about the wait - the last couple of days have been pretty heavy on me. Megapost(s) and audio demos coming soon...

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

Does that mean with the same drum sound, style and tempo, I'll have enough to choose from for different sections of a whole song? Could you describe more in detail how it would cover the needs of a whole song?

There are lots of variations, but it's not explicitly split into verse/bridge/chorus-type sections. With the Groove Capsule, the best way to make different sections is by combining and layering different combinations of grooves. It's all about The Groove!

Check out a rough demo I did here:
http://www.esoundz.com/media/mp3/upload ... roove1.mp3

Keep in mind that this only just scratches the surface - there are seriously HUNDREDS of loops on the Groove Capsule!

And if get the product description right, one can also trigger just segments of loops? How is that achieved? That would give some good control, cause one could switch segments around as needed.
How flexible is it in terms of adapting to the tempo I want?

As Groove Capsule is a multi-format library, it depends on what sampler you're using with it. ST2 can't slice loops (yet), but it TOTALLY flexible in terms of adapting to your host's tempo. ST2's loop timestretching (PS/TS) mode is so good that in almost all cases you'd never know the loop is even processed. So instead of having a bunch of loops at different tempos, in ST2 you have ALL the loops at YOUR tempo! Pretty awesome.

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

Is it (Brit Horns) chromatic samples all the way or does it also come with licks?

It's all chromatic multisamples. The real strength of Brit Horns is the "effects" like bombastic trills and falls that are typical to big-band or jazz brass sections. It's really useful to have if you're into doing a lot of modern music with a variety of brass. It's got some good material that will also blend well with other sampled brass. However, I 'd recommend it if you've already got a few brass libraries, because Brit Horns isn't a complete brass library on its own . it's AMG, not Sonic Reality... so not the same bang for buck that you might be used to.

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

finger drumming the i-map kits always gives the best results.

Not if you're a drumming illiterate. - Which I almost am. And I wonna do song writing in the little time I have, not spend 100 hours on drums.

i'm not exactly sure what style of music you do, pop is a very broad term. to some it is simple piano ballads with strings, to others it is full blown drum n' bass or house tracks.

Let me try to put it the following way.
Britney S., Ronan Keating, Backstreet Boys, Justin Timberlake.
It's not exactly what I do, but beats like the ones in their music would inspire me.

tele

I think Groove Capsule will fit you very well. There are heaps of acoustic kit loops, as well as plenty of electronic - both normal dance/techno as well as more weird esoteric effected stuff. Using the loops is as simple as loading up one of the banks in ST2, making sure tempo sync is on, and then playing on your MIDI controller keyboard.

Actually, I find that having the loops mapped on the keyboard is a really fast way to experiment with different combinations - much faster than mousing around. The only downside is that there are so many combinations - it's easy to get carried away and just have FUN playing!

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

tell me more about brit horns! Are they loops or one shot horns.

dw

It's all chromatic multisamples, not phrases. There is a mixture of one-shots and endlessly looped notes.

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

Let me try to put it the following way.
Britney S., Ronan Keating, Backstreet Boys, Justin Timberlake.
It's not exactly what I do, but beats like the ones in their music would inspire me.
tele

alright fair enough. I would say Groove Capsule or Eclectic Drums will fit the bill for you then.

Groove Capsule and Eclectic Drums cover similar sonic ground. Which one you go for really depends on your style of working. If you like working with loops and want to get your rhythm section down fast then Groove Capsule will work well for you. Personally I like my drums and percussion, and I like to spend time programming my own rhythms, so I tend to use Eclectic Drums a lot more.

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

Hey guys. I just got back from a REALLY long production meeting so I'm dead tired... but I'll get back tomorrow with some details about the grooves and Brit Horns.

-Kim.

Sure, I'd love to hear some more about the grooves capsule.
Especially converning
a) Styles of muscic that you could see produced, just name some famous artists (international) - that'll do the trick for me.

That's really hard. Groove Capsule is so diverse that it could seriously be used in anything from heavy metal, rock, through Britney-pop to french house, techno, trip-hop, and everything in between. I think there's even a few country loops in there too!

You're making chart-pop, so there's a lot of cool stuff you can do with the Groove Capsule. I like how chart-pop often combines straight-ahead drum kits or electronic drums with stranger stuff in the background or in the bridge or whatever. Often a strange sound or beat is the hook or signature sound of a pop song. Even adding a unique character.

Weird stuff is what I'm into - but remember there's also a lot of regular drum kit loops too!

b) Workflow, steps you gotta do to get it right in a full song's context

If you're using ST2, it's really easy:

1) Load one of the loop banks into ST2
2) Make sure Loop Sync is on, maybe try PS/TS mode or even Stretch to see which mode you like the sound of better.
3) Play different combinations on your MIDI controller keyboard!

It's really easy - and FUN! I keep talking about fun, but seriously - don't discount the fun aspect. We're all making music because we enjoy it (I'm a composer too, currently doing film scores, so I know!) so the last thing we want is to get bogged down for an hour doing something that's just a chore. Especially if it's something that we're not too good at or don't like to waste time on (like rhythm programming in your case). You know you're onto something good when something like Groove Capsule turns something you don't like into something enjoyable!

Hope that helps.

-Kim.

[telebunke]

There are lots of variations, but it's not explicitly split into verse/bridge/chorus-type sections. With the Groove Capsule, the best way to make different sections is by combining and layering different combinations of grooves. It's all about The Groove!

-Kim.

Understood. The make break point for me is: How many variations would I have with the same sound? Makes not much sense to have the drum sound changed 5 times in one song. They don't have to labeled "Intro/Verse/Chorus" and so forth. That's not important.

tele

[Kim Lajoie]

The make break point for me is: How many variations would I have with the same sound?

With exactly the same sound? Some of the acoustic drum kit loops have up to three or four variations. Maybe more if you look across different banks (which is cool, since ST2 has loop sync).

It's mainly different sounds though. It's not organised as collections of "one kit, several patterns". Groove Capsule is organised as a collection of a wide variety of different loops. Some have a few different variation patterns.

If you're only going to use the loops that have variation patterns, then maybe you won't get the best use out of Groove Capsule. If you're going to use some variation patterns and also augment them with additional percussion loops or electronic loops then Groove Capsule will be very useful. It depends on the kind of music you're making, and your style of working.

-Kim.

[telebunke]

As Groove Capsule is a multi-format library, it depends on what sampler you're using with it. ST2 can't slice loops (yet), but it TOTALLY flexible in terms of adapting to your host's tempo. ST2's loop timestretching (PS/TS) mode is so good that in almost all cases you'd never know the loop is even processed. So instead of having a bunch of loops at different tempos, in ST2 you have ALL the loops at YOUR tempo! Pretty awesome.

Thanks for all these detailed answers, Kim. That's indeed very helpful. I love you.
My Sonic Tank arrived yesterday and after installing, I also played around with some of the loops and it was fun and sounded good. And it's nice to do things like throwing an amp on it to effect it heavily.

One thing about Groove Capsules
Here's a quote from the description of the esoundz web site.

Outstanding Flexiblity
The Groove Capsule is designed to be immediately usable and wonderfully flexible. Need just a single hit or short segment? It's in there. We've also included the beat-sliced versions and associated MIDI files for every loop. We've essentially done all the grunt work for you.

When I asked about workflow I mainly thought about the aspects mentioned here. How can short segments be triggered? How's the workflow like when using the sliced versions.
Wold I play with the normal loops till I got the ones I want and then how to go on from there to access the sliced versions with the associated MIDI file. How would I find the same snare sound, as used in the loop, as a single hit, so I could add one at any point in time.
I'm working with CubaseSX, Halion(ONLY if I really must ) and now ST2, if that helps you to describe it.

tele

[Kim Lajoie]

One thing about Groove Capsules
Here's a quote from the description of the esoundz web site.

Outstanding Flexiblity
The Groove Capsule is designed to be immediately usable and wonderfully flexible. Need just a single hit or short segment? It's in there. We've also included the beat-sliced versions and associated MIDI files for every loop. We've essentially done all the grunt work for you.

When I asked about workflow I mainly thought about the aspects mentioned here. How can short segments be triggered? How's the workflow like when using the sliced versions.
Wold I play with the normal loops till I got the ones I want and then how to go on from there to access the sliced versions with the associated MIDI file. How would I find the same snare sound, as used in the loop, as a single hit, so I could add one at any point in time.
I'm working with CubaseSX, Halion(ONLY if I really must ) and now ST2, if that helps you to describe it.

tele

Ah ok. When you install the Groove Capsule, there's an option to generate sliced ST2 instruments. What this does is create a single ST2 instrument for each loop, and the loop is mapped across the keyboard so each key triggers a single hit in the loop. There is also a MIDI file for each loop, and that provides the rhythm and groove.

With regards to workflow, it's a bit more involved to use the complete loop and sliced hit versions of the same loop. This is because the complete loop versions in ST2 are collected together in banks, and there's no way to discover the name of an individual loop in the bank. That means if you want to go and find the sliced version, it might be a bit of hunting about before you find the right one.

Of course you can choose to only use the sliced versions, which means manipulating the groove is much easier, but auditioning different loops is a bit more time-consuming (because each loop has its own ST2 instrument, and you have to drag in the MIDI file in order to play it with the intended rhythm and timing).

So basically you have this choice:
> Fast auditioning and layering, less rhythm control, or
> Slower auditioning and layering, more rhythm control

I hope that helps.

-Kim.