KVR Audio

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:24 pm

Hm, seriously, Boogex IMO doesn't stand the competition with the (free) Cortex amp (which I just tried), especially in terms of preserving playing dynamics.

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:36 pm

Sascha, but it does stand the competition in the terms of sound-shaping and impulse support.

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:42 pm

Yeah well, Aleksey, sure does (but then, sound shaping is quite flexible in Cortex), but to me, as a (professional, if I may add) guitar player proper interaction of my hands, my axe and my amp is essential.
When playing live, I often use a pretty much driven sound and simply turn down my guitar volume to get an almost clean sound. I have yet to see something like that coming from an emulation.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:56 pm

I agree, but I can't for the life of me figure out why not. It's a simple matter of compression and drive.

daverich · Post by **daverich** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:10 pm

isn't it because the valves themselves generate tones/harmonics which are still voodoo to dsp programmers?

Kind regards

Dave Rich.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:21 pm

Nah. Only guitarists think of tubes as voodoo. The industry also wants us to believe it's voodoo. The bulk of the work is done in terms of emulating the tone, but for whatever reason the developers (not talking to Aleksy here... I have no idea how Boogex sounds) don't bother emulating the response.

Greg

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:49 pm

I think a great amount of the desired interaction *could* be achieved easier by using tubes. But it's certainly no must!
Funny thing, I'm getting an almost tube-amp alike interaction from my rusty GT-5 (Boss multieffect floor unit). The thing itself doesn't sound great at all, but they got the interaction pretty much right on some of the amp models, for whatever reasons.
I haven't experienced anything as good on all plugin based solutions I tried out. Of course, the sound is allways better, but as said before, for me proper interaction is a key feature.
FWIW, the VAmp IMO doesn't do it all that bad either, at least on some models. Yet, it's not as good as with the GT-5.
Really making me wonder...

Frippertronix · Post by **Frippertronix** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:28 pm

Aleksey Vaneev wrote:Frippertronix, have you checked out some of the latest version presets? (that's for the question about power of the mids).

BTW, there's no need in the input gain control. Just set the Drive to a lower value.

I do not know why some people talk about getting rich if succeeding with the product. Good product is a half of the story. Much more than that is needed to get rich...

I was still getting distortion from my bass with the drive at minimum, but maybe playing with the phase knob would help that. My bass sounds best with its own volume full up so I was probably driving the input fairly well.

Frippertronix · Post by **Frippertronix** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:35 pm

My own opinion is that dynamics and interaction with the guitar are less important than the quality of the clipping and harmonic warmth, the "tightness" of the sound (think of the best SLP heavy overdrive sound---just tight and punchy with no ragged edges or fizz, just a tight 12AX7/EL-34 clip), and the tonal balance (lows, highs, mids in balance for a sweet, "brown" sort of overdrive)---these are formost in the quality of any amp emulation to my mind.

Dynamics would be great, but if I plugged into an emulation, whether a hardware stomper or software, and got a totally compressed but authentic sounding Plexi power chord crunch, I'd be happy enough even with no playing dynamics and no cleanup with my guitar volume backed down. At least I'd have something I could use.

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:42 pm

Frippertronix wrote:tight and punchy

'Tightness' is all in the playing..

and 'punchiness' is about dynamics.

Frippertronix · Post by **Frippertronix** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:55 am

IIRs wrote:
Frippertronix wrote:tight and punchy
'Tightness' is all in the playing.. and 'punchiness' is about dynamics.

"Tightness" could be used that way, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking purely about tube clipping. Drive a 6L6 with a UL transformer to clipping and compare that to driving a pure class A, single ended amp with an EL-84 tube. It's the difference in the quality of distortion I'm talking about.

I like the sound Van Halen was getting early on when he would have his tech bias his late '60's SLP until the tubes were about to melt. There wasn't too much dynamics going on there when he would bang out power chords, but the beauty and intensity of the overdrive was so nice it didn't matter (IMO, though that's only one style obviously). That tone was compressed, huge, and beautiful. If you could get that sound out of an emulation, you would get rich, and it wouldn't take genius marketing.

As far as punch goes, that's dynamics, but I think the other poster was talking about dynamic response to pick attack. The emulation could be plenty punchy but have very little dynamic response to the player's technique. I think it would still sell well if the sound was good enough, even if it was a one trick pony.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:01 am

I disagree. A player's sound is made and broken with his touch. The amp is completely secondary to a player's personal dynamics.

Greg

Frippertronix · Post by **Frippertronix** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:24 am

Lunch Money wrote:I disagree. A player's sound is made and broken with his touch. The amp is completely secondary to a player's personal dynamics.

Greg

I've heard it many times but I still don't get that. Yes, a better player coaxes more variety from a guitar, but pick up an all original '62 Strat and plug it into a '59 Bassman and about all you have to do is ensure proper fretting, not whimpy gauge strings (10's or heavier) and to strike the strings hard enough to make the body resonate and what you hear will be good tone. The tone in the midst of phrasing may be more uniform before a guitarist learns to put nuance into his or her touch, but that doesn't equal bad tone, in my opinion.

Most people who can't make a guitar sound good have one or both of two problems: a) the instrument itself is mediocre or crap, or b) they can't fret hard enough and/or strike the string hard enough to achieve a firm stop on the string and good resonance. Beginners always sound weak when they play because of this.

People always say things like "If Clapton walked into Guitar Center and picked up any shit guitar, he would still sound like Clapton." My response to that is, well first off I think his tone has been so so for years, but that's a different issue. Bottom line is, yes, it takes skill for him to sound good (not play well) on the guitar, but that skill is negligible compared to the skill it takes to improvise and write music well. If a plyer has strong enough hands and they have a good ear they can sound good or great on a good rig within the first year. Not loaded with different shades and nuances, but still achieving and maintaining good tone---again,if their rig is good enough.

Take a concert violinist who happes to own a real Stradivarius. Now, it takes serious skill to make any violin not sound like shit because bowing well is no easy feat--much harder than simple work with a flat pick. But if that violinist starts sawing away and you say: "Wow, the sound you get from that Strad as so sweet" do you think it's reasonable to say that sweet tone is "all in the violinist's hands"? Any 1st chair 11th grade violinist could make a Stradivarius sound incredible, though no doubt the famous concert violinist would sound better.

I'm ranting because I think it's offputting to "unseasoned" musicians to act like it's some kind of esoteric skill to make a good instrument sound good. It's not that hard. And I'm not defending myself as a beginner, I've played guitar for 20 years.

I think the cliche of "it's all in the player's hands" was started by blues guitarists primarily because they sneak a huge variety of inflections into their playing which add character, but I seriously think that's something above and beyond simple "good tone". That adds to strong pharsing and nuance, which brings the sound to life, but you don't sound bad on a good instrument if you lack those nuances, just more uniform.

Frippertronix · Post by **Frippertronix** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:34 am

Frippertronix wrote:My own opinion is that dynamics and interaction with the guitar are less important than the quality of the clipping and harmonic warmth, the "tightness" of the sound (think of the best SLP heavy overdrive sound---just tight and punchy with no ragged edges or fizz, just a tight 12AX7/EL-34 clip), and the tonal balance (lows, highs, mids in balance for a sweet, "brown" sort of overdrive)---these are formost in the quality of any amp emulation to my mind.

Dynamics would be great, but if I plugged into an emulation, whether a hardware stomper or software, and got a totally compressed but authentic sounding Plexi power chord crunch, I'd be happy enough even with no playing dynamics and no cleanup with my guitar volume backed down. At least I'd have something I could use.

To clarify my own post---I wasn't trying to make some big statement about how playing nuances and dynamics aren't somehow important or help to make a great musician. I totally believe those factors are important. I wasn't saying anything about what makes great musicianship---I'm only speaking to what is important in the design of an amp emulation.

I put pure tube tone and clipping quality in the emulation before dynamic response mostly because I think you have to start somewhere, and I have yet to hear an emulation of a tube amp that even gets the pure tone of the amp beyond a pale shadow of what a real overdriven tube amp sounds like.

To me, that's the first hurdle to get over because you could make a very dynamic and reactive emulation that sounds like a mosquito in heat and the dynamics and touch sensitivity would be worthless because the tone quality of the "amp" itself would be so bad as to make dynamics irrelevant.

It's the context of current amp emulations I'm talking in that led me to make that emphasis.

IIRs · Post by **IIRs** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:31 am

Frippertronix wrote: Any 1st chair 11th grade violinist could make a Stradivarius sound incredible,

i don't have the words to express how wrong that statement is..

Voxengo Boogex Guitar Amp (alpha)