Beg your pardon? I know of two different notations for pedal action. You'll mostly find them in lesson books, but sometimes also in edited edition of the romantic composers.tee boy wrote:It seems that the sustain pedal really is little more than an expressive tool, which probably explains why there is no reference to it in the notation.
Question for any Pianists
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- KVRAF
- 2830 posts since 2 Mar, 2003 from The only civilized county in Texas
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- something special
- 8630 posts since 16 Mar, 2002 from Birmingham, Alabama
perhaps I'm misunderstanding here..are you saying there's more expression in playing a rhodes vs a piano?declassified wrote:by the way: @Smeagol: i think a piano doesn't offer too much variety in velocity apart from the volume and slight tonal changes. at least when you compare it to the fender rhodes
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
OK, I'm a professional piano and keyboard teacher so if I can help I will 
Here's a few points that come to mind:
1) Sustain pedal (i.e. the one on the right) is not expected in graded examination music until around grade 3 which is why you've not much encountered it so far. The only exception is - for example - to create an effect on the final chord, which sometimes happens prior to grade 3.
2) Pedalling is marked in the music with the sign "Ped_________" marked under a group of left hand notes. This is almost always for guidance, however, and you should feel free to experiment. As noted by another contributer above, earlier keyboard music (Bach, Handel, Scarlatti, etc) predates the piano and pedalling is not written in. Use a small amount of pedalling at your discretion, but be very careful not to overdo it, as music from that period rarely had the static harmony necessary for pedalling to actually sound good. In other words, the chord progressions are usually quick, and using the pedal would blur the sound.
3) Regarding technique, the trick of good pedalling is to release the pedal at the correct moment. This is the moment at which the chord/harmony changes, and so is often on the first beat of the bar. When this happens you should lift your foot on that first beat, and then press the pedal back down to sustain the new chord. This seems unintuitive, because it is natural to tap your foot downwards on the bar. You need to, as it were, tap upwards instead! After a little practice it starts to come naturally, though!
4) The technique described above is called "legato pedalling". The result is that you can join sounds together, but without blurring the sound.
5) The golden rule of legato pedalling is to use your ears! Don't let there be gaps in the sound, but make sure you don't OVER pedal. This is a very common fault, and sounds terrible!
6) The Soft pedal (the one on the left) is what I think you mean by "mute" pedal. On an upright piano it actually has little effect (it moves the hammers a little nearer the strings, which arguably softens the likely attack of the note). On a grand piano it has a more dramatic effect, shifting the entire keyboard slightly! Very odd if you don't expect it! What is happening is that the hammers will now only hit two stings per note, instead of three within the central/upper register. This obviously makes the dynamic quieter.
7) Using the soft pedal is a very specific and special effect. Classical composers always indicated in the music that they wanted this effect by writting "Una Corda" (one string, named after the grand piano mechanism I described). Press the soft pedal when you see that indication, but not otherwise! Hold the pedal down until you see the direction, "Tre Corda", which means "three strings", so let go of the soft pedal.
I hope this covers most of the points you are interested in but please feel free to ask further questions or PM me. I'll be watching the thread
Here's a few points that come to mind:
1) Sustain pedal (i.e. the one on the right) is not expected in graded examination music until around grade 3 which is why you've not much encountered it so far. The only exception is - for example - to create an effect on the final chord, which sometimes happens prior to grade 3.
2) Pedalling is marked in the music with the sign "Ped_________" marked under a group of left hand notes. This is almost always for guidance, however, and you should feel free to experiment. As noted by another contributer above, earlier keyboard music (Bach, Handel, Scarlatti, etc) predates the piano and pedalling is not written in. Use a small amount of pedalling at your discretion, but be very careful not to overdo it, as music from that period rarely had the static harmony necessary for pedalling to actually sound good. In other words, the chord progressions are usually quick, and using the pedal would blur the sound.
3) Regarding technique, the trick of good pedalling is to release the pedal at the correct moment. This is the moment at which the chord/harmony changes, and so is often on the first beat of the bar. When this happens you should lift your foot on that first beat, and then press the pedal back down to sustain the new chord. This seems unintuitive, because it is natural to tap your foot downwards on the bar. You need to, as it were, tap upwards instead! After a little practice it starts to come naturally, though!
4) The technique described above is called "legato pedalling". The result is that you can join sounds together, but without blurring the sound.
5) The golden rule of legato pedalling is to use your ears! Don't let there be gaps in the sound, but make sure you don't OVER pedal. This is a very common fault, and sounds terrible!
6) The Soft pedal (the one on the left) is what I think you mean by "mute" pedal. On an upright piano it actually has little effect (it moves the hammers a little nearer the strings, which arguably softens the likely attack of the note). On a grand piano it has a more dramatic effect, shifting the entire keyboard slightly! Very odd if you don't expect it! What is happening is that the hammers will now only hit two stings per note, instead of three within the central/upper register. This obviously makes the dynamic quieter.
7) Using the soft pedal is a very specific and special effect. Classical composers always indicated in the music that they wanted this effect by writting "Una Corda" (one string, named after the grand piano mechanism I described). Press the soft pedal when you see that indication, but not otherwise! Hold the pedal down until you see the direction, "Tre Corda", which means "three strings", so let go of the soft pedal.
I hope this covers most of the points you are interested in but please feel free to ask further questions or PM me. I'll be watching the thread
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
thanx headquest...
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Really? I'll have to look into that. Although in this sentance I was actually refering to the particular music Iv been practicing.TennesseeVic wrote:Beg your pardon? I know of two different notations for pedal action. You'll mostly find them in lesson books, but sometimes also in edited edition of the romantic composers.tee boy wrote:It seems that the sustain pedal really is little more than an expressive tool, which probably explains why there is no reference to it in the notation.
Is this notation standard or is it specific to certain composers?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Headquest,
Yes, your post has been MOST helpful. Thanks, much appreciated!
I'll keep and eye out for that notation you mentioned, since Iv not come across it yet.
Yes, your post has been MOST helpful. Thanks, much appreciated!
I'll keep and eye out for that notation you mentioned, since Iv not come across it yet.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Glad to have helped.
With my own pupils I recommend they learn Erik Satie's Gymnopedie no.1, which is ideal for learning pedalling. It's about grade 5 standard, so will be a bit of a challenge, but often pupils of around grade 3 rise to it because its such a lovely piece
Good luck and stick with it!
With my own pupils I recommend they learn Erik Satie's Gymnopedie no.1, which is ideal for learning pedalling. It's about grade 5 standard, so will be a bit of a challenge, but often pupils of around grade 3 rise to it because its such a lovely piece
Good luck and stick with it!
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- KVRist
- 191 posts since 2 Apr, 2002 from Cincinnati, OH
Pedal notation is standard - it's either something looking like: ____________________| (the start of the line is where you start to pedal, while the vertical line at the end is where you lift the pedal)
OR
Ped. (written in cursive-looking letters) with an cursive-looking * where you're supposed to release the pedal).
There's a lot of incredible piano music both for beginners and more advanced people. Tchaikovsky and Bartok both wrote relatively simple pieces, while people like Liszt (I'm learning his Piano Sonata in B-minor right now), Ravel and Rachmaninoff are really amazing IMO.
OR
Ped. (written in cursive-looking letters) with an cursive-looking * where you're supposed to release the pedal).
There's a lot of incredible piano music both for beginners and more advanced people. Tchaikovsky and Bartok both wrote relatively simple pieces, while people like Liszt (I'm learning his Piano Sonata in B-minor right now), Ravel and Rachmaninoff are really amazing IMO.
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- KVRAF
- 2830 posts since 2 Mar, 2003 from The only civilized county in Texas
headquest wrote:2) Pedalling is marked in the music with the sign "Ped_________" marked under a group of left hand notes.
There's also the __________/\_______/\_________ notation.
V.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
I just found a piece that uses this notation extensively:
Associated Board, Grade 8, List C:1 - "Impromptu"
Headquest,
I shall certainly give that piece a try! I have toyed with a couple of Gr5 pieces from the Associated Board syllabus (Iv been omitting the trills though
). Hopefully I can raise my game.
While your here could i ask if you know of any particular exercise good for performing trills? Like I said, Iv been using the preliminary exercises from the Hanon book (they're quite hard to play upto speed!). I feel that my technique is really the only thing holding me back at present - it really isnt THAT different from guitar, which I completed the Trinity grades in.
Associated Board, Grade 8, List C:1 - "Impromptu"
Headquest,
I shall certainly give that piece a try! I have toyed with a couple of Gr5 pieces from the Associated Board syllabus (Iv been omitting the trills though
). Hopefully I can raise my game.While your here could i ask if you know of any particular exercise good for performing trills? Like I said, Iv been using the preliminary exercises from the Hanon book (they're quite hard to play upto speed!). I feel that my technique is really the only thing holding me back at present - it really isnt THAT different from guitar, which I completed the Trinity grades in.
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- KVRAF
- 2830 posts since 2 Mar, 2003 from The only civilized county in Texas
Get you some Czerny. Sooner or later he covers everything.tee boy wrote:While your here could i ask if you know of any particular exercise good for performing trills?
V.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Czerny is certainly good from the technical point of view, but don't overdo it! Relaxation and freedom of movement is crucial.
Here's a site worth visiting for general advice about piano technique:
http://www.pianomap.com/
Also regarding trills I assume you understand the theory/different varieties? If not the AB Guide to Music Theory is a must-have read (a bit dry, but contains all the info you need and is very cheap).
Happy browsing!
Here's a site worth visiting for general advice about piano technique:
http://www.pianomap.com/
Also regarding trills I assume you understand the theory/different varieties? If not the AB Guide to Music Theory is a must-have read (a bit dry, but contains all the info you need and is very cheap).
Happy browsing!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Tell you a funnu story:
Iv noticed over the six months Iv been playing that the sounds of my piano has gradually gotten duller and duller. It reached a point last weeked when I literally couldnt play this simple trill without really nailing the keys (and completely ruining the effect). I ofcourse thought it was just me beginning to realise who shite my old upright really is!
Alas this was not the case. I should also probably mention that I am a chronic messy bastard, and my studio is no different. Since Iv had the piano in my music room stuff has got piled up higher and higher on top, to the point where it was actually effecting the instruments ability to produce sound!
I cleared the shit off and now its playing like a dream (comparibly).
This really has f**k all to do with anything, but it does illustrate my naivity towards this instrument. I know music, but until recently the piano has been foreign turf. So if I make any daft assumptions or as any stupid questions you'll understand why!
Headquest and all,
Yes, thanks again for the info. I do have a thorough knowledge of music theory yes. Im a little rusty in practice mind, I would probably need to brush up a little if were to sit a Gr8 exam.
But I will have a glance thorough the AB Guide once again. I guess this would be in vol 1 under ornaments, and vol II under keyboard instruments, right?
Iv noticed over the six months Iv been playing that the sounds of my piano has gradually gotten duller and duller. It reached a point last weeked when I literally couldnt play this simple trill without really nailing the keys (and completely ruining the effect). I ofcourse thought it was just me beginning to realise who shite my old upright really is!
Alas this was not the case. I should also probably mention that I am a chronic messy bastard, and my studio is no different. Since Iv had the piano in my music room stuff has got piled up higher and higher on top, to the point where it was actually effecting the instruments ability to produce sound!
I cleared the shit off and now its playing like a dream (comparibly).
This really has f**k all to do with anything, but it does illustrate my naivity towards this instrument. I know music, but until recently the piano has been foreign turf. So if I make any daft assumptions or as any stupid questions you'll understand why!
Headquest and all,
Yes, thanks again for the info. I do have a thorough knowledge of music theory yes. Im a little rusty in practice mind, I would probably need to brush up a little if were to sit a Gr8 exam.
But I will have a glance thorough the AB Guide once again. I guess this would be in vol 1 under ornaments, and vol II under keyboard instruments, right?
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
tee boy wrote: This really has f**k all to do with anything, but it does illustrate my naivity towards this instrument. I know music, but until recently the piano has been foreign turf. So if I make any daft assumptions or as any stupid questions you'll understand why!
A good anecdote!Volume 1, as you say.But I will have a glance thorough the AB Guide once again. I guess this would be in vol 1 under ornaments, and vol II under keyboard instruments, right?
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- KVRian
- 1278 posts since 24 May, 2004
@ tee boy: i sent you a pm.
@bluedad: no, a piano also has a very expressive sound.
the rhodes only seems to alter it's sound more extreme at different velocities. if you hit the keys soft, it is very bell-ish and mellow, if you strike them hard, it really bites. but that's OT here.
@bluedad: no, a piano also has a very expressive sound.
the rhodes only seems to alter it's sound more extreme at different velocities. if you hit the keys soft, it is very bell-ish and mellow, if you strike them hard, it really bites. but that's OT here.