Does any host have a usable Freeze?

[René]

I just heard that when you have automation envelope on a track, the freeze will render everything from start of the project until the end.

Possibly from some SX user
In Sonar, you generally route as many MIDI tracks as you wish into any instrument, followed by an effect chain. Then you can have envelopes for Gain, Pan, Automated Mute, Track EQ, etc. applied to that track.
When you freeze, all envelopes remain in-place and operational. In short, not only you can mute/solo or edit the track volume/pan/eq on frozen tracks, but you can also have them automated via envelopes. The gate will still create clips based in your settings, and you'll be able to copy/move those clips. You can also draw clip-level automation envelopes on those.

Also, I think that linked MIDI parts with Frozen parts is a logical way of working with them. For instance, lets say I freeze a midi bassline pattern that goes from 25 sec to 45 sec. Now, I decide that the bassline should start at 30th second, so I move the frozen part to 30th second. Then I decide that I need to make some MIDI adjustements with the bassline, so I unfreeze it. Now what happens is that the midi part goes back to 25second, not the updated location. Then I have to move parts again which creates unnecessary mouse clicks and confusion (as you may have noticed, I am lazy clicker hehe)

There's no such a thing as 'logical way'. There's only 'a way I like'

I often freeze a track, then clone it and apply different effects to the clones, and route those to different outputs. I wouldn't like no stinkin MIDI copies of all those audio clones/copies. I also use to keep a single MIDI clip of multiple audio clips, which appear in different locations. I would hate the thing if it'd move my MIDI clips.

In most multitimbral synthesizers, several MIDI tracks are routed to a single synth. However, after freezing they're often a single audio track. If I copy that track, what would I want copied MIDI clips for?

BTW, Sonar will also allow you to disconnect/reconnect a synthesizer automatically on freeze/unfreeze. This means that if you load a 1Gb sample set in memory, then freeze the track, you can recover all the memory. This is a great feature when working with huge sample sets.

There's also the 'quick freeze/quick unfreeze' function, which will enable/disable the frozen components and audio if no edits are done. Some other hosts will freeze everything again from scratch, even if you didn't change a thing.

-René

[René]

I'd like to have a function that freezes the portion on the timeline you select...just like highlighting some area on the timeline and bouncing to audio.

No idea why you need to be forced to use a "gate" or to render the whole song time.

Sonar has offered this function for years (I think since the old ProAudio days). It's just not called 'freeze' but 'bounce to track' instead.

You are not forced to use the gate: it's an option you have when you *do want* to freeze the whole track, but *don't want* to have a single clip, including silence, but several clips with silence removed instead, all in one operation.

You can do this manually yourself anytime using Bounce, in the exact way you described.

-René

[headquest]

Did anybody try the freeze function of Live 5 yet? I've just been reading about it in the german "Keyboards" mag and it looks kinda promising (such as that you can still keep working with your frozen clips more or less freely).

Yes, it's great! Far more flexible than the others I have tried. Mind you, as a Live 4 die-hard, I'm so used to bouncing that it will take me a little while to adjust to having this awesome new feature

[superddman]

I just heard that when you have automation envelope on a track, the freeze will render everything from start of the project until the end.

Possibly from some SX user
In Sonar, you generally route as many MIDI tracks as you wish into any instrument, followed by an effect chain. Then you can have envelopes for Gain, Pan, Automated Mute, Track EQ, etc. applied to that track.
When you freeze, all envelopes remain in-place and operational. In short, not only you can mute/solo or edit the track volume/pan/eq on frozen tracks, but you can also have them automated via envelopes. The gate will still create clips based in your settings, and you'll be able to copy/move those clips. You can also draw clip-level automation envelopes on those.

Also, I think that linked MIDI parts with Frozen parts is a logical way of working with them. For instance, lets say I freeze a midi bassline pattern that goes from 25 sec to 45 sec. Now, I decide that the bassline should start at 30th second, so I move the frozen part to 30th second. Then I decide that I need to make some MIDI adjustements with the bassline, so I unfreeze it. Now what happens is that the midi part goes back to 25second, not the updated location. Then I have to move parts again which creates unnecessary mouse clicks and confusion (as you may have noticed, I am lazy clicker hehe)

There's no such a thing as 'logical way'. There's only 'a way I like'

I often freeze a track, then clone it and apply different effects to the clones, and route those to different outputs. I wouldn't like no stinkin MIDI copies of all those audio clones/copies. I also use to keep a single MIDI clip of multiple audio clips, which appear in different locations. I would hate the thing if it'd move my MIDI clips.

In most multitimbral synthesizers, several MIDI tracks are routed to a single synth. However, after freezing they're often a single audio track. If I copy that track, what would I want copied MIDI clips for?

BTW, Sonar will also allow you to disconnect/reconnect a synthesizer automatically on freeze/unfreeze. This means that if you load a 1Gb sample set in memory, then freeze the track, you can recover all the memory. This is a great feature when working with huge sample sets.

There's also the 'quick freeze/quick unfreeze' function, which will enable/disable the frozen components and audio if no edits are done. Some other hosts will freeze everything again from scratch, even if you didn't change a thing.

-René

OK. you got me. now I know the truth.

Sonar has done a really nice job with freeze. I definitelly will try it.

This quick freeze feature also looks cool. So, if I only change the volume envelope on the Synth's Audio Out track, that is not considered as edit and quick freeze will work?

[superddman]

Did anybody try the freeze function of Live 5 yet? I've just been reading about it in the german "Keyboards" mag and it looks kinda promising (such as that you can still keep working with your frozen clips more or less freely).

Yes, it's great! Far more flexible than the others I have tried. Mind you, as a Live 4 die-hard, I'm so used to bouncing that it will take me a little while to adjust to having this awesome new feature

Now I am also starting to wonder how really Ableton's freeze works. Maybe somebody that has tried it can outline in detail its abilities.

[René]

This quick freeze feature also looks cool. So, if I only change the volume envelope on the Synth's Audio Out track, that is not considered as edit and quick freeze will work?

In that case, you don't even need Quick Freeze

You arrange all your synth parts. Then you create Volume/Pan/Send Level/Send Pan/Automated Mute envelopes. Then you freeze your synth, saving all CPU and memory.

All your envelopes are still editable.


-René

[AudioWhore]

Yeah SX's freeze is shite still. All I want is to be able to move parts around the track and mute them.. thats all!

[Steffen Fuerst]

I would only want the automation envelopes (mainly volume) to be retained between the midi parts and frozen parts.

A possible workaround would be to add an additional bus, send the midi and frozen part to this bus and do the volume/pan automation here. This should be possible in every host, Samplitude has the advantage, that you can remove the midi/frozen part tracks from the mixer view, so that the mixer shows still only one channel stripe.

[headquest]

Now I am also starting to wonder how really Ableton's freeze works. Maybe somebody that has tried it can outline in detail its abilities.

I gave a detailed, lengthy explanation on page 6 of this thread:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=75

I hope this helps!

[Spyro]

I'd like to have a function that freezes the portion on the timeline you select...just like highlighting some area on the timeline and bouncing to audio.

No idea why you need to be forced to use a "gate" or to render the whole song time.

Sonar has offered this function for years (I think since the old ProAudio days). It's just not called 'freeze' but 'bounce to track' instead.

You are not forced to use the gate: it's an option you have when you *do want* to freeze the whole track, but *don't want* to have a single clip, including silence, but several clips with silence removed instead, all in one operation.

You can do this manually yourself anytime using Bounce, in the exact way you described.

-René

I meant bounce because Freeze is just a bounced clip but it retains MIDI and VST data.

I know Sonar has bounce to track since the very old days.

I just meant, and not only on Sonar but all hosts, that there should be a way to select a portion of your work and freeze it, so you have audio clips (with a different color than a regular clip perhaps) that you could right click and unfreeze if you want. In my imagination I see freezing MIDI parts, those parts are deleted (or marked as "muted") from the MIDI track and a new frozen audio clip appears.

I'm not using Sonar anymore (I'm 100% FL studio now), but the gate feature sounds like you have to define a volume threshold to tell Sonar what is silent...but this sometimes doesn't work as some of the effects (like a feedback delay)could have a silent part but it progressively start making noise.

So would be easier if you can just select the portion you want to freeze. Again, I'm thinking about the workflow (or at least mine) where in 99% of the cases I just wanted to freeze some synth or insert FX on a certain part of the song, which is causing lots of dropouts, instead of the whole track.

[René]

I just meant, and not only on Sonar but all hosts, that there should be a way to select a portion of your work and freeze it, so you have audio clips (with a different color than a regular clip perhaps) that you could right click and unfreeze if you want. In my imagination I see freezing MIDI parts, those parts are deleted (or marked as "muted") from the MIDI track and a new frozen audio clip appears.

Thanks, I see your point. That's exactly what I do by combining the Bounce-to-Track and the Mute tool: I often find some parts where polyphony is high and therefore I get CPU spikes. Then I bounce a few clips to audio, and use the mute tool to mute the clips. Though this is a lightning fast procedure, and not a super-often used one, it would be still possible to save a couple of clicks by doing that automatically. The current approach, however, allows editing the MIDI clip and performing A/B comparisons, then rebounce and keep both tracks.

I say that it's not super-often used because in most cases, if you can't disconnect the synthesizer and all fx in the chain, there's no huge gains on freezing.

If you load some heavy instrument, like for instance z3ta+, you'll see that most of the CPU drain is due the effect processors. In those cases, not freezing the whole track results in small recovery after freezing.

I'm not using Sonar anymore (I'm 100% FL studio now), but the gate feature sounds like you have to define a volume threshold to tell Sonar what is silent...but this sometimes doesn't work as some of the effects (like a feedback delay)could have a silent part but it progressively start making noise.

If you use the gate in that effect, it will remove the silence, and after it starts making noise it will preserve the noise as a clip. You can naturally disable the gate and split the clips it manually if you get a particularly problematic case, I haven't ever found one.

-René

[Spyro]

If you use the gate in that effect, it will remove the silence, and after it starts making noise it will preserve the noise as a clip. You can naturally disable the gate and split the clips it manually if you get a particularly problematic case, I haven't ever found one.

-René

Cool to hear that, seems like the Cake guys are doing stuff on the right way

[superddman]

Now I am also starting to wonder how really Ableton's freeze works. Maybe somebody that has tried it can outline in detail its abilities.

I gave a detailed, lengthy explanation on page 6 of this thread:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=75

I hope this helps!

I read your post but from what I can understand it still does not allow you to move around the frozen parts. IMO this is the most important thing that it should have. But I might be wrong.

[superddman]

As of now, in my books, the first place in freeze category takes Sonar, followed closely by Samplitude. All of the other ones fall way behind.

I must say that Samplitude's freeze is more streamlined (less clicking) but it does not retain automation envelopes between frozen and midi parts. Sonar does. That's why I would prefer Sonar over Samplitude.

[kilroy]

Well mates...after slogging through this entire thread I remain convinced that there is nothing quite like the efficiency of bouncing the track.