Rant on music theory ignorance.

[tee boy]

If yer born with da funk then you don't need none of that theory shit..

Why?

Everyone needs to develop. You cant make computer music without learning to use the equipment, and to an extent the theory behind how it works. No amount of 'funk' will make you a wizard in Cubase or PT without serious time investment.

Same could be said for writing and orchestrating music.

Listen, I dont think anyone is saying that you cant make great music without theoretical knowledge. We're saying that with that knowledge you'll be able to develop and become much more than without it.

[Hink]

let's put it this way...what's to lose if you do learn theory? And no one tell me improv and creativity cause that's false...

But that's still the argument: if you learn a bunch of rules, then you'll only be able to write what falls inside those rules.

Who knows. There could be something to that. On the other hand, most people are not so totally brilliant that they come up with a new version musical universe every other week. Most of them get stuck in a pretty limited idiom. So if you know enough rules you can actually be more creative than someone who has to invent everything himself.

A while ago I wrote something that had lots of jazzy II-V-I, and at some point I embellished that with stuff like Am-Fm-D (for the II-V). That's of course straight out of Bruckner, but to the average listener that's a case of "wow, those are some creative chords".

It's all the same to me. Sometimes knowing the theory suggests the solution to a problem, and sometimes I happen to write something that I know is not covered by any theory I know.

There are many roads to musical happiness.

Victor.

I can say for a fact that's not true, I prove it everyday I think it's the irrational fear of that and the fear "it might be too complicated" that fuels that argument.

Be that as it may, if someone who doesn't know theory writes incredible music, he still is writing incredible music...

[tee boy]

True, but quite often they are practicing theory without actually knowing it. Take the Beatles - their music is full of western theory, as is most modern pop music. They might not know it but its still music theory!

[McLilith]

...I keep running into beginners making electronic music online that all have the same opinion -- that music theory is bollocks.

I don't think music theory is "bollocks", but I never put a lot of effort into learning much of it either.

Now, I would go alot easier on these people if their music was actually worth listening to. By and large though, its absolutely terrible stuff, and its clearly evident that they had no clue what they were doing. I know this is pretty subjective territory, but still, it was plainly evident.

Out of curiosity, is my one and only piece written for the KVR Cafe "absolutely terrible stuff" as you put it?

Carnival of Fates

I would like your honest opinion about my piece, especially since I haven't seriously pursued learning music theory. I didn't create it to showcase any sort of viruosity of composition or playing skills. It exists merely to ellicit a certain mood, and to hopefully be entertaining in its own way. For my first Cafe contribution, I think it succeeded fairly well.

On the other hand, I'm sure you can find reasons to tell me why it sucks.


take care,
McLilith

[VicDiesel]

True, but quite often they are practicing theory without actually knowing it.

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. They are practicing practice. Theory is the ability to put labels on things and to recognize when something unusual is going on. Among other things.

[tee boy]

Ok, ok... probably not the best wording. Its late and I need sleep!!!

Im sure you get the point. People who disregard the practices of western music often use them without knowing it.

[Hink]

True, but quite often they are practicing theory without actually knowing it.

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. They are practicing practice. Theory is the ability to put labels on things and to recognize when something unusual is going on. Among other things.

no because theory is also about breaking the rules, and the better understanding of theory you have the more you understand of how to use that theory and the unusual together to create feel, progression, tension ect...

[McLilith]

I'm pretty much in agreement with TennesseeVic on that point. They might accidently do something similar to what a person who knows theory might do, but that doesn't mean they are actually practicing theory. Also common, is someone who emulates music they have already been exposed to, without understanding the underlying "rules" behind that music. Some things are just so common and traditional, that it's easy to find yourself incorporating common elements of music which you have been exposed to. This isn't exactly what I would call accidental, but it certainly isn't what I would call "practicing theory" either.


take care,
McLilith

[Hink]

I'm pretty much in agreement with TennesseeVic on that point. They might accidently do something similar to what a person who knows theory might do, but that doesn't mean they are actually practicing theory. Also common, is someone who emulates music they have already been exposed to, without understanding the underlying "rules" behind that music. Some things are just so common and traditional, that it's easy to find yourself incorporating common elements of music which you have been exposed to. This isn't exactly what I would call accidental, but it certainly isn't what I would call "practicing theory" either.


take care,
McLilith

however I assume you like me are probably fairly observant and you likely will start tying strings together...you may not talk the talk, ie you might not use all the proper terms, but you do begin to understand how music relates to itself...a good ear is recgnizing that...that doesn't mean you gotta study all these words, modes, scales ect and name them of the top of your head...but you still mignt understand theory, just in your way...

[tee boy]

I do get what you guys are saying, but i cant 100% agree.

Think of all the tunes that have been written using progression of fifths. The people who made these tracks probably had a good understanding of this technique, without knowing the history and the traditional uses.

How about modulation? Do you need to know the traditional applications of modulation to do a key change in you track? Ofcourse not. Is it any the less a modulation? No.

[Joxer the Mighty]

Learning theory will NOT make you sound like everyone else. Nor will it suddenly make your music sound bland/commercial/soulless. What a ridiculous claim that is. However, a good knowledge of theory will let you sound like the above, and ANYTHING ELSE you desire, when you need or want to. In other words, it expands your vocabulary so you know what you need to play when striving for a particular sound or mood. Yes, there most certainly are rules in music, but they're there for you to follow or break as you see fit.

Knowledge is a good thing. I can't think of ONE situation where ignorance benefits anyone. Why should it be different when it comes to music?

[tee boy]

Hink, exactly my point! Just articulated a little more effectively

[kilroy]

I believe a grounded knowledge in practical music theory is fairly important, necessary even, if you aspire to be a well rounded and broadly competant musician. One does not absolutely require that level of proficiency to play and or write music on some level that will move listeners, and evoke some sort of enthusiastic response.

Theory is much like a road map...it's nice to have in case you get lost.

[Hink]

Learning theory will NOT make you sound like everyone else. Nor will it suddenly make your music sound bland/commercial/soulless. What a ridiculous claim that is. However, a good knowledge of theory will let you sound like the above, and ANYTHING ELSE you desire, when you need or want to. In other words, it expands your vocabulary so you know what you need to play when striving for a particular sound or mood. Yes, there most certainly are rules in music, but they're there for you to follow or break as you see fit.

Knowledge is a good thing. I can't think of ONE situation where ignorance benefits anyone. Why should it be different when it comes to music?

however in fairness...knowing theory will not always make you a great musician...I just have to think of one old friend. Oh he tried, studied under a berkley grad across the street from Berkley. Dave really learned his stuff...but he just never developed an ear or feel...

[VicDiesel]

Out of curiosity, is my one and only piece written for the KVR Cafe "absolutely terrible stuff" as you put it?

I don't think so. Purely subjectively I like the mood that it sets down. That said, you're stretching a limited amount of material quite far. Organ riff, repeat, sound effect. Same organ riff, repeat, same sound effect. (When I heard that the second time I was thinking "He's made me wait quite a bit for absolutely nothing new.") Different organ, different sound effects. First organ and sound effect again.

You know what this reminds me of? Ives' "Unanswered Question". Listen to that for a good example of being repetitive but with minor accumulating changes.

Oh, your organ riff is very cool. It's not quite dodecaphonic (twelve-tone) but it comes close. In 11 notes you hit 9 different pitches, spanning a chromatic minor sixth. Ignoring a Bb passing tone, the only repeated note is the first and last, which kind of establishes a tonality. Ages ago I went through a period where I was writing atonally, and somehow hearing the same note twice in close succession offended me. Hence themes with 10 different pitches or so. Your theme is one that I could have written then.

I'd say that paragraph is a theoretical analysis of something you wrote intuitively. (Or were you aware of how that theme hit every chromatic note from G-Eb?) So theory did not help you, nor would it hinder me.

I find theory pretty value-free. It enables you to talk about music constructively, and sometimes it helps in writing something. You definitely need to know theory to play age-appropriately. A while ago I was in a recital playing music from the 14th through 18th century, and in several cases we had to arrange / make up lines. We did discuss what sort of things were appropriate for what music.

Victor.